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From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

anandsanwal.me

51–60 of 78 posts

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#51
post #33

Ha, pretty funny article. Well written for sure, but it's got major "if only they let ME run things, everything would be fixed in day!" vibes. College rankings aren't broken because some data scientist made a bad decision, they're broken because they're an essential part in the contemporary American class system: sending your kid to SAT bootcamp and then a "prestigious" university is one of the few ways the top 10% c…

Supplying free rides results in students who don't have "skin in the game". If one works to pay the tuition, one is incentivized to get the most value out of their classes. Without such skin in the game, a student is more likely to do as little as possible and focus on having fun instead.

My parents paid for my college tuition. This was also the case for many of my peers. They turned out just fine. Honestly they seem to have done better than those who took out loans purely because they don't have loans.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

philosophy, fine arts, comparative literature, history, etc. Those are all quite valuable to have in the workplace, but anyone with a bachelors in one of those topics will likely need to get a masters degree in the same field or something else before they can find a decent career.

Why does that make comparative literature, for example, a "real" education and, say, math not? BTW, there's no need to go to university to learn history. All that's necessary is to read a history book. I read lots of them. Paying someone to lecture you about history seems a waste of time and money. Just read it. Much more time efficient.

You could do the same for math. Or any subject, really. There's a reason people go to college for that, and it's not because they want to sit with a book to learn the subject.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#53

College rankings are a bit like corruption rankings: they are measurements of perceptions. Not only that, perceptions are heavily influenced by previous rankings. If your ranking doesn't show Harvard and MIT near the top, it is wrong. If your corruption index doesn't show Scandinavia and Western Europe above Africa and South America, it is wrong. If it's wrong, people will not want to read it. If you do an "objective…

Show me an LLM ranking that doesn’t put an OpenAI or Anthropic product at the top.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#54
post #35
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's such a strange way to evaluate schools. My high school was inner city. But they had AP programs, computer science classes, advanced mathematics. It's all about your child and the individual path they'll take within the school. And if they have or two smart friends that they enjoy hanging out with, they're golden.

>And if they have or two smart friends that they enjoy hanging out with, they're golden. The probability of that happening is greater if average test scores are higher. The "tiger parents" aren't just looking for schools that offer the best programs, they're also looking for schools that have less problematic students that disrupt the learning environment and would be bad influences on their kids.

You make friends with those that you're in class with.

The entire school isn't the friend pool, but your proximity of classmates.

If the class room sizes are roughly the same, probability of meeting two smart friends will be roughly the same.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#55
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, my community college didn't seem to care about rankings (although they were proud of their transfer statistics), but my 4 year school seemed really proud to be in the top 10 of small private engineering schools where doctorates are not offered in the upper midwest that nobody two states away has heard of. Looking now, they've got actually some good looking rankings in some other categories.

Agreed on the skepticism. Feels safe to say that anyone not in the top 10 don't care about the ratings that heavily, but I question whether it is meaningless.

Not safe to say— I have first hand experience.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#56
post #40

Here's an insider's insight: Colleges hate these rankings too, including the shit eating grin they have to plaster on their face when they go out in public and say things like "We're one of the top 10 small public non-land grant research institutions in the upper middle pacific northwest region!" But too many families have been convinced that rankings like this are useful so now the institutions have little choice bu…

I dunno, my community college didn't seem to care about rankings (although they were proud of their transfer statistics), but my 4 year school seemed really proud to be in the top 10 of small private engineering schools where doctorates are not offered in the upper midwest that nobody two states away has heard of. Looking now, they've got actually some good looking rankings in some other categories.

Community colleges care much less because the students that go there are choosing those schools for very different reasons. In some cases it’s financial, in some cases lack of options, in some cases for very specific certifications, etc. Community colleges also have less ability to chase rankings through lack of $ to plow into marketing budgets or other fluff used to inflate rankings so there’s no reason to care all that much. The issue also isn’t something a student will be too aware of after the few months of college search prior to enrolling.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#57
post #54
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And if they have or two smart friends that they enjoy hanging out with, they're golden. The probability of that happening is greater if average test scores are higher. The "tiger parents" aren't just looking for schools that offer the best programs, they're also looking for schools that have less problematic students that disrupt the learning environment and would be bad influences on their kids.

You make friends with those that you're in class with. The entire school isn't the friend pool, but your proximity of classmates. If the class room sizes are roughly the same, probability of meeting two smart friends will be roughly the same.

>If the class room sizes are roughly the same, probability of meeting two smart friends will be roughly the same.

Why must both schools have the same proportion of potential "smart friends"? Even if the school with better test grades somehow had the same proportion as all the other schools, all the tiger parents flocking to that school is going to change the proportion.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#58
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on the skepticism. Feels safe to say that anyone not in the top 10 don't care about the ratings that heavily, but I question whether it is meaningless.

Not safe to say— I have first hand experience.

Fair. I was thinking it is /safer/, at least?

Not at all surprised to know a lot of people care about this. I'd be surprised to know that there wasn't more money tied to these than makes sense.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Viewing college through this lens is part of the problem. It's college as job training , not education. Real education covers more than "skills and credentials I need to get a well-paid job."

> Real education covers more than "skills and credentials I need to get a well-paid job." I'm curious what real education would be that does not impart a skill that others are willing to pay for? I speak as someone who selected classes based on maximizing skills that would be useful in the career I wanted.

The best examples I can give:

1. College educated people smoke less on average. This is true regardless of income even though typically less income correlates to more smoking.

2. In poor neighborhoods, when the number of residents without college drops below a certain threshold (like 4 percent maybe), crime skyrockets. The neighborhood stops being merely poor and becomes a dangerous slum.

A liberal arts education is widely scoffed at. There's some joke about what kind of careers different majors lead to and the punchline is that liberal arts major say "Would you like fries with that?" which is shorthand in this day and age for "You will probably be drowning in college debt and a wage slave working to pay off your student loans while living in Mom's basement if you are lucky enough to have supportive parents."

But they are called liberal arts because they are supposed to be liberating. They are supposed to free and empower you to live well and know how to cope effectively with crap life throws at you.

The Clemente Course is intended to be a free liberal arts college education for people living with terrible circumstances like generational poverty or in prison and has been taught in prison. It was founded on the theory that the right kind of education is the antidote to these kinds of intractable problems that routinely fail to be resolved by throwing money at them.

https://www.clementecourse.org/

I homeschooled my twice exceptional sons and a primary goal of mine was making sure my extremely bright but socially challenged children didn't wind up in jail. I provided them a humanities education defined as "learning how to live effectively with the inconvenient, inescapable fact of their own humanity and that of other people."

I'm a huge fan of liberal arts education and my AA is in Humanities. Yes, I'm very well aware it doesn't give you a lot of marketable skills to make bank promptly upon graduation.

I also have a Certificate in GIS from probably the most prestigious GIS program in the world and it promised everyone good salaries in short order which never materialized for me.

I don't regret it and it wasn't a waste of time or money but the historic tendency for college to correlate to good salaries is probably rooted in the fact that until they decided to milk poor people for student loans interest and turn a generation of college graduates into over educated wage slaves, a college degree was a proxy for "Someone with adequate resources and mojo and drive who knows what they want to do."

It wasn't the degree per se that made them successful. They had what it took to get the degree and that correlated strongly to having what it took to establish a serious career that paid well.

A sheepskin is a necessary but insufficient prerequisite for some careers. It's not a guarantee you will succeed though and someone somewhere along the way imagined it was and many people are suffering horribly because of it.

Re: From Myth to Measurement: Rethinking US News and World Report College Rankings

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

philosophy, fine arts, comparative literature, history, etc. Those are all quite valuable to have in the workplace, but anyone with a bachelors in one of those topics will likely need to get a masters degree in the same field or something else before they can find a decent career.

Why does that make comparative literature, for example, a "real" education and, say, math not? BTW, there's no need to go to university to learn history. All that's necessary is to read a history book. I read lots of them. Paying someone to lecture you about history seems a waste of time and money. Just read it. Much more time efficient.

A lot of people (present company excluded I’m sure) don’t know how to read critically. They may read history but not understand historiography. They may not be able to tell the difference between Livy and Tacitus. Being educated by a professional can save you a lot of time, for instance if you mistake Victor Davis Hanson for a historian.
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