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Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

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Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#111

Post by Manuel_D »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #108
Manuel_D wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that the sizeable majority of the disdain for unions stems from economic reasoning, not some personality or sub-cultural factor. Let's revisit the original comment I responded to: > It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. When one writes "soft…

My point wasn't that cultural factors are more important in explaining disdain. It was simply that economic issues can't explain the disdain in its entirety. The first response was that I was saying economics played no factor, then it was that I was saying that economics were more important. I'm not sure what you're arguing about anymore. It changes with every response. You seem to be bent on arguing with me and I'm…

I have been making the same point this whole time: the aversion to unions stems entirely from economic reasoning, not some "personality/sub-cultural disdain" for unions among the majority of software developers. In particular:

* Unions tend to push for seniority based pay schedules that fail to reward based on performance.

* Unions maintain membership be deliberately opposing efficiency gains that would allow for more work to be done with fewer personnel (because fewer personnel means fewer union members).

These trends are economically bad. Both for software developers themselves and for society as a whole. The majority of software developers who reject unions do so, entirely on these sorts of economic grounds. That's my position, and I don't see where it's changed throughout this conversion.

On the other hand, I'm still not sure about the scope of your statement "software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics". An unqualified statement "X group believes Y" would normally indicate that this applies to the group, broadly. But in a later comment you wrote "all it takes is one counter-example" to prove this true - suggesting that you intended this to apply very narrowly, potentially to just one person.

My claim is that the majority of developers are anti-union for entirely economic reasons. Maybe you do or don't agree, since the scope of how many developers you are stating harbor anti-union for non-economic reasons remains ambiguous.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#112

Post by Ferret7446 »

lurkshark wrote: post #39
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.

Sometimes I wonder if you framed it differently would it be more appealing to tech workers. Like if there was a startup that negotiates on behalf of employees for salary, benefits, remote vs in-office, etc. using collective influence as more people from a particular company used it. Or to put it another way, how much of the distaste for unions is wrapped up in the term “union”?

You'd need a free market of competing startups which workers could freely switch between or choose to not use, which is antithetical to the very concept of a union.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#113

Post by spicymaki »

naming_the_user wrote: post #48
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I wonder what drives these decisions? Is there that much solid evidence that they get more value out of people in the office rather than home? Or are there other reasons like tax incentives that encourage in-person work over remote? Is this just a control thing or or there a compelling argument that I am missing?

The management want return to office and that's it. Why does there need to be something "driving the decision"? You may as well ask why I want my cleaner to descale the bottom of my taps. There may well be no reason beyond aesthetic preference. Maybe it's not more profitable or less profitable. Maybe it's within margin of error, and maybe the people running Amazon for the most part prefer working in an office.

> The management want return to office and that's it.

I believe this is the truth. I worked for a startup 20 years ago and the founder told us all to come in early in the morning and look as busy as possible, because key investors were touring the office. He told us that they wanted to see where their money was going and we need to play our part.

Normally we worked nights and weekends at home and in the office, but the management class actually want to see us sweat IRL.

Another part of this is the management class has a herd mentality. If they see another dominant manager with some modicum of success do something, they will mindlessly copy it.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#114

Post by psb217 »

Manuel_D wrote: post #111
kelseyfrog wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point wasn't that cultural factors are more important in explaining disdain. It was simply that economic issues can't explain the disdain in its entirety. The first response was that I was saying economics played no factor, then it was that I was saying that economics were more important. I'm not sure what you're arguing about anymore. It changes with every response. You seem to be bent on arguing with me and I'm…

I have been making the same point this whole time: the aversion to unions stems entirely from economic reasoning, not some "personality/sub-cultural disdain" for unions among the majority of software developers. In particular: * Unions tend to push for seniority based pay schedules that fail to reward based on performance. * Unions maintain membership be deliberately opposing efficiency gains that would allow for mor…

Yes, professional athletes and hollywood stars are famously compensated on seniority-based schedules.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#115

Post by Manuel_D »

psb217 wrote: post #114
Manuel_D wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been making the same point this whole time: the aversion to unions stems entirely from economic reasoning, not some "personality/sub-cultural disdain" for unions among the majority of software developers. In particular: * Unions tend to push for seniority based pay schedules that fail to reward based on performance. * Unions maintain membership be deliberately opposing efficiency gains that would allow for mor…

Yes, professional athletes and hollywood stars are famously compensated on seniority-based schedules.

Cherry picking a couple exceptional unions doesn't alter the predominant trend. On the flip side, we have teachers unions and police unions with seniority based pay. And they're much larger than athletics unions. The National Basketball Players Association has 450 members. The National Education Association has 3 million.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#116

Post by jhwhite »

dingnuts wrote: post #6
golemiprague wrote: post #2

The advantage of working from home was that you could take care of kids and do all the housework, this worth thousands of dollars per months. For years companies didn't adjust salaries in accordance to inflation and the cost of outsourcing kids care and house care, all that while keeping interest rate low and bailing rich bankers with printing of money. This caused funneling of wealth from the workers to asset holder…

where did this meme come from that you can do house work and child care while working remote? It's not remotely true. Child care is a full time job. You might be able to move laundry around while tests run but that's about it. If people are neglecting their jobs enough to take care of kids then they're giving ammo to the management class to argue that they can't trust us.

Depends on the age of the child. A 10 year old is old enough to be at the house without direct supervision but not be left alone. They would need to go to a daycare if someone were in an office.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#117

Post by jhwhite »

snapcaster wrote: post #19
golemiprague wrote: post #2

The advantage of working from home was that you could take care of kids and do all the housework, this worth thousands of dollars per months. For years companies didn't adjust salaries in accordance to inflation and the cost of outsourcing kids care and house care, all that while keeping interest rate low and bailing rich bankers with printing of money. This caused funneling of wealth from the workers to asset holder…

Isn't this kind of proving the point of RTO from the company's point of view? If you're taking care of your child and doing housework instead of working?

Right, but how much work is done when in the office. You might have the same amount of downtime in the office than at home, but now that down time can't be spent doing something else.

They'd rather pay you to do NOTHING.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#118

Post by varispeed »

snapcaster wrote: post #18
varispeed wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many major employers also hold investments in commercial property. Empty offices lose value. Someone somewhere got in their excel that loss of productivity from RTO is lower than potential loss of the property investments.

This keeps being repeated but there is no evidence provided. Can you point to a single example of a company where this calculation would be made/true?

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/construction/real-estate-brei...

https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/reits-to-capital...

Whilst these are not direct examples, they show the commercial estate market is in deep trouble if people are not going to return.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#119

Post by snapcaster »

varispeed wrote: post #118
snapcaster wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This keeps being repeated but there is no evidence provided. Can you point to a single example of a company where this calculation would be made/true?

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/construction/real-estate-brei... https://money.usnews.com/investing/articles/reits-to-capital... Whilst these are not direct examples, they show the commercial estate market is in deep trouble if people are not going to return.

Right, but the reason this theory doesn't make sense is because why would the executives of another company give a shit? How would they induce a bunch of tenants to RTO on their behalf?

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#120

Post by panarky »

dingnuts wrote: post #6
golemiprague wrote: post #2

The advantage of working from home was that you could take care of kids and do all the housework, this worth thousands of dollars per months. For years companies didn't adjust salaries in accordance to inflation and the cost of outsourcing kids care and house care, all that while keeping interest rate low and bailing rich bankers with printing of money. This caused funneling of wealth from the workers to asset holder…

where did this meme come from that you can do house work and child care while working remote? It's not remotely true. Child care is a full time job. You might be able to move laundry around while tests run but that's about it. If people are neglecting their jobs enough to take care of kids then they're giving ammo to the management class to argue that they can't trust us.

It's about flexibility.

I can get up early and work an hour, then get the kids ready for school, then work five hours, then take them to my sister's place after school, then work two hours, then have dinner and read them stories before bed, then work another hour.

Can't do that from an office with an hour commute each way.

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