Live data from Hacker News

Aliens and the Enlightenment

historytoday.com

11–20 of 61 posts

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#11
post #3

This is full of distortions and omissions. Firstly, an "earth centred" cosmology did not assume all things were made for man. It held the earth was a small part of the solar system, which in turn was surrounded by far larger (infinite?) heavens. It is also worth thinking about what Medieval people place at the very centre of the earth, and therefore the exact centre of the universe. She mentions some possible answers…

> Firstly, an "earth centred" cosmology did not assume all things were made for man.

Well, this one has sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole. In a previous life I was in relatively close academic proximity to Patricia Fara (author of OP). I doubt she'd make such a claim lightly. So I started chasing citations.

OP states at the start of the "Analogy and Conjecture" section:

> Earth-centred cosmologies had assumed that the universe had been designed specifically for human beings, but Newtonian modernisers deemed that it was only ‘according to the old vulgar Opinion, that all things were made for man’.

This passage looks to be carried over from a 2004 paper written by Fara [0]. The quotation "all things were made for man" is attributed to William Derham - an English clergyman, scientist, and contemporary of Newton - in a text titled "Astro-Theology" [1]. Derham's own reference for this is in fact another of his own texts titled "Physico-Theology" [2], in which he states:

> This was no very eafy queſtion to be anſwered by fuch as held, that all things were made for man ; as moſt of the ancients did ; as Ariftotle, Seneca, Cicero, and Pliny ( to name only fome of the chief) . And Cicero cites it as the celebrated Chryfippus's opinion, Præclarè enim Chryfippus, cætera nata eſſe bo- minum causâ, & deorum. " For Chryfippus rightly judged that all things were created for man and for the Gods."-De fin. bon. & mal. 1. 3. And in his De Nat. Deor. 1. 2. fin. he ſeri- riouſly proves the world itſelf to have been made for the Gods and man, and all things in the world to have been made and contrived for the benefit of man (parata , & inventa ad fructum hominum, are his words ) . So Pliny in his preface to his 7th book faith, Nature made all things for man ; but then he makes a doubt, whether the fhewed herſelf a more indulgent parent, or cruel ftep-mother, as in book iv. chap. 12. note 2. But fince the works of God have been more diſcovered, and the limits of the Univerfe have been found to be of infinitely greater extent than the ancients ſuppoſed them ; this narrow opinion hath been exploded. And the anfwer will be found cafy to theſe queſtions, Why fo many ufelefs creatures ? In the Heavens, Why fo many fix'd ftars, and the greateſt part of them ſcarce vifible ? Why fuch fyftems of planets, as in Jupiter, Saturn, & c. ( See my Aftro-Theology. ) In the earth and waters, Why fo many creatures of no ufe to man ?

It looks to me like Derham makes a pretty good case here for Fara's claim, at least in "most" of the ancient cosmologies.

[0] "Heavenly bodies: Newtonianism, natural theology and the plurality of worlds debate in the eighteenth century", p.149. https://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/2004JHA....35..143...

[1] "Astro-theology Or a Demonstration of the Being and Attributes of God, from a Survey of the Heavens", Book 2, Chap 2, p.18. https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_esc=y&hl=fr&id=GpjG22...

[2] "Physico-theology Or, A Demonstration of the Being and Attributes of God, from His Works of Creation", Book 2, Chap 6, p.5. https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Physico_theology/Ouk_...

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#12

The idea that other worlds would be your deal breaker on Christianity is strange. They were fine with two continents needing over a millennium to first hear about Jesus, but a plurality of worlds would be "irreconcilable." Maybe they couldn't imagine space travel ever being possible?

Space travel isn't currently possible. It ever becoming possible is pure speculation on your part. No man has ever left the Earth and set up shop elsewhere and lived. None. Zilch. It's science fiction.

There are people living in space stations right now? Are you saying rockets are fake or do you mean that we don't have any permanent habitats on other planets?

E.g. https://whoisinspace.com/

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space travel isn't currently possible. It ever becoming possible is pure speculation on your part. No man has ever left the Earth and set up shop elsewhere and lived. None. Zilch. It's science fiction.

Yes, in the same way that affordable flying cars are science fiction. The technology is known in theory; we just have (possibly insurmountable) political, financial, and legal hurdles to overcome before it will become possible.

Not really comparable. Flying cars are not technological fiction, they're just called helicopters, it's just that from a economic/ecology POV they make no sense.

Space travel between worlds is SF.

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#14
post #7

I think the Sumerian clay tablets (that is the bible is partially based of) reveal a lot more about the origins of human civilizations.

Very partially. The first book of the Old Testament is mostly retellings of existing myths.

I agree clay tablets tell us about the origins of civilisation - but TBF she is writing about the "enlightenment". However, it clearly had multiple causes, including political and economic ones as well as new discoveries.

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#15
post #11
post #3

This is full of distortions and omissions. Firstly, an "earth centred" cosmology did not assume all things were made for man. It held the earth was a small part of the solar system, which in turn was surrounded by far larger (infinite?) heavens. It is also worth thinking about what Medieval people place at the very centre of the earth, and therefore the exact centre of the universe. She mentions some possible answers…

> Firstly, an "earth centred" cosmology did not assume all things were made for man. Well, this one has sent me down a bit of a rabbit hole. In a previous life I was in relatively close academic proximity to Patricia Fara (author of OP). I doubt she'd make such a claim lightly. So I started chasing citations. OP states at the start of the "Analogy and Conjecture" section: > Earth-centred cosmologies had assumed that…

[deleted]

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#16
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in the same way that affordable flying cars are science fiction. The technology is known in theory; we just have (possibly insurmountable) political, financial, and legal hurdles to overcome before it will become possible.

Not really comparable. Flying cars are not technological fiction, they're just called helicopters, it's just that from a economic/ecology POV they make no sense. Space travel between worlds is SF.

But we have sent probes to other worlds? What is science fiction about this?

A manned mission to Mars is entirely feasible with current technology. In fact I'd argue it'd have been feasible with 1980s technology, it was simply costly. If we (we as in humankind) wanted, we could have a base on Mars for some time now.

Who is to say what our capabilities will be in 50 years? In 100 years?

A manned mission to another solar system is going to be very-very difficult, we'd need generational space ship/habitats. Note that difficult is not the same as impossible. Such a ship could be feasibly constructed with modern day technology, but it would be enormously costly so there was no motivation to do it.

I'd agree with your point that a mission to another galaxy is basically unimaginable with technology we can realistically theorize about today. We'd need extremely exotic physics which are unlikely to be doable ever.

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#17
post #14
post #7

I think the Sumerian clay tablets (that is the bible is partially based of) reveal a lot more about the origins of human civilizations.

Very partially. The first book of the Old Testament is mostly retellings of existing myths. I agree clay tablets tell us about the origins of civilisation - but TBF she is writing about the "enlightenment". However, it clearly had multiple causes, including political and economic ones as well as new discoveries.

Absolutely. I was just referring to the invention of writing which is based on current understanding was done by Sumerians. It raises many questions in me, how did we end up with such a sophisticated language (and many other things like the sexagesimal number system for example).

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#19
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, in the same way that affordable flying cars are science fiction. The technology is known in theory; we just have (possibly insurmountable) political, financial, and legal hurdles to overcome before it will become possible.

Not really comparable. Flying cars are not technological fiction, they're just called helicopters, it's just that from a economic/ecology POV they make no sense. Space travel between worlds is SF.

It miht be science fiction but before the space race traveling to the moon was science fiction too. Yet we did not only travel to the moon but actually walk on it.

I don't have any doubts that at some point humanity will find a way to do interstellar travel. Though I doubt it will happen in our lifetime

Re: Aliens and the Enlightenment

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Space travel isn't currently possible. It ever becoming possible is pure speculation on your part. No man has ever left the Earth and set up shop elsewhere and lived. None. Zilch. It's science fiction.

There are people living in space stations right now? Are you saying rockets are fake or do you mean that we don't have any permanent habitats on other planets? E.g. https://whoisinspace.com/

They are not living in space, they are temporary visitors on an unstable structure that requires constant resupply from Earth, absent of which they will all die and the structure falls back to Earth and is destroyed. Even with indefinite resupply, astronauts have to return to Earth for health reasons, because our bodies did not evolve / were not designed for space. Astronauts get irradiated and lose reproductive fertility.
Post reply on HN