Earlier quoted context omitted.
My impression is people are generally alarmed but without any science of what the harms are it’s hard to understand what we need to do about the situation. The science is still very immature, and there are lot of other bad things (PFAs for example) that are likewise ubiquitous and permeate everything and everywhere that we have a pretty clear notion of their dangers. Even then it’s hard to assess how severe the harms…
> Even then it’s hard to assess how severe the harms are for microplastics yet. Part of the reason is they’re clearly not overtly dangerous. This is a contradiction.
Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
121–130 of 186 posts
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#122Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, we've been exposed to microplastics for decades, but what does the evidence say? Afaict, not much. We don't need RCTs, nor do we rely on them to make causal inferences about long term exposures, nor would an RCT be possible with microplastics. But we need some converging lines of evidence before we go chicken little. What's the alternative?
> Well, we've been exposed to microplastics for decades, but what does the evidence say? Afaict, not much. The revelation that you are likely to have microplastics suffused throughout your body seems far more meaningful than "not much". The effects of this are unknown, but it seems reasonable to be concerned about potential harm until it's effects are studied in vivo and it's statistically not more harmful than the u…
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is it impractical? It would be unpopular and put prices up but it could be done. We would have to reduce the amount of clothing that is produced but that is hardly a problem as we produce vastly more than we need. We could eliminate fast fashion for a start.
You don't hear people saying, man, that asbestos and lead did a bang up job on X. But you 100% see 100% of women wearing stretchy pants. For the longest time I exclusively wore cotton jeans and then they became impossible to find and I finally realized what plastic was good for: fat people. Now I see men wearing them all the time. The struggle of the 80s on people killing themselves to fit into jeans is not longer a…
Well, asbestos is a great insulator and lead makes beautiful bright paints, it's just that the downsides outweighed those great properties.
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
Disappointingly nothing in that study relates these health impacts to known levels of microplastics in humans. That means there’s no way to tell, from that study, if the levels of microplastics to be found in you and me are likely to have material impact. I definitely feel we should be more serious about reducing use of plastics, especially for uses likely to contribute to microplastic levels, but it’s going to be ha…
One doesn't reduce the use of plastics without using something else as a replacement. If we replace all plastic cups with glass cups, might we get micro-glass inside ourselves instead? Glass, mostly silicon dioxide, might sound harmless, but glass can chip off in microscopic sharp fragments (think fiberglass dust - which some suggest might be as bad as asbestos). Glass also slightly dissolves in water (this is how gl…
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#125I am fairly convinced that this comment section is among the best demonstrations for "isolated demands for rigor" I have personally ever seen, especially paired with any comment section about an AI-related article When we are trying to predict the implications of unproven technologies on complex worldwide economies, there is talk of "obvious inevitability" When we express concerns that chemicals humanity recently sta…
> I am fairly convinced that this comment section is among the best demonstrations for "isolated demands for rigor" I have personally ever seen, I’ve found HN and other comment sections to lean in the direction of assuming the worst about microplastics, historically. However, I think we’re all getting tired of the constant “sky is falling” tone around these studies that can’t demonstrate harms outside of extremely na…
Used to be, you could ignore the alt types because you had to buy their magazines to know what they were thinking. Now apparently everyone needs to be aware of what they are thinking and make sure they have the exact opposite opinions of the alt types so they seem sane or whatever. You can just ignore the them you know, they are not in the room with you.
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is probably one of the most prominent studies till date: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38446676 Microplastics and nanoplastics in atheromas and cardiovascular events. N Engl J Med. 390(10):900-910, 2024. Summary: People with artherial plaque that contains micro- and nano-plastics have a higher risk of death during the followup period. It's an observational study, sample size is not too big, but some findings l…
People don't even care about the atherosclerotic effect of saturated fats and lipoproteins that we've known for half a century.
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is not in housing, it’s in the water, in the snow, it’s everywhere forever.
I think you are confusing plastics with so-called forever chemicals.
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#128I am fairly convinced that this comment section is among the best demonstrations for "isolated demands for rigor" I have personally ever seen, especially paired with any comment section about an AI-related article When we are trying to predict the implications of unproven technologies on complex worldwide economies, there is talk of "obvious inevitability" When we express concerns that chemicals humanity recently sta…
> I am fairly convinced that this comment section is among the best demonstrations for "isolated demands for rigor" I have personally ever seen, I’ve found HN and other comment sections to lean in the direction of assuming the worst about microplastics, historically. However, I think we’re all getting tired of the constant “sky is falling” tone around these studies that can’t demonstrate harms outside of extremely na…
These microplastics are crossing the blood-brain barrier in a significant portion of the population without most people even intentionally ingesting them. Hell, it's hard to avoid if you try. Our society slathers this stuff over everything. In my lifetime I've seen a giant swath of packaging for food go to plastic from some other material, presumably to cut costs. I recently bought a new oven and I guess they put those stupid plastic phone screen covers over the glass panes on both sides of the oven door. Do they just ship all glass with this stuff applied to it now?
The burden of proof to ensure these things are safe should be on the companies selling them. The companies that make these substances already have vast research arms for designing the polymers, and if they were held to even the FDA's standards for drug safety we would have a lot more studies about this stuff. These companies are also heavily subsidized by governments, which might even be part of why downward pressure on price seems to make everyone go to plastics. Like why exactly is it cheaper, even if you don't bake in the entire R&D budget of inventing them, to use novel polymers made as byproducts of petroleum than it is to make glass or cardboard packaging?
We should, in the same way that we do for pharmaceuticals, hold these orgs to a standard of demonstrating that this bioaccumulation doesn't cause some kind of harm, because the alternative is that some researcher needs to come up with a specific claim of harm, fund a study despite there being significant pressure from these orgs to never do such studies, and certainly never publish if the results might credibly make them look bad, and somehow translate that into making bespoke positive policy prescriptions that would likely be fought tooth and nail by same. That expectation is not a sane default
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fact that we can't pin down a strong effect on human health outcomes after decades of exposure should be a relief. We do have in vivo studies, but afaict they don't seem to pan out in human health outcomes.
> The fact that we can't pin down a strong effect on human health outcomes after decades of exposure should be a relief What kind of strong effect are you looking for, immediate death? That fact isn't reassuring to me at all. There's a wide variety of increasingly common health conditions that have an unknown etiology -- ADHD, autism, CFS, IBS, mental illness, obesity, etc. The fact there isn't an immediately obvious…
Re: Microplastics in the olfactory bulb of the human brain
#130Does someone have good papers on the negative effects of microplastics (ideally on humans)? A while back I tried to look for those, and it was nontrivial to find papers that would conclusively show that they are harmful, and the mechanisms of this harmfulness. There's a ton of press about where they are (everywhere) but (as a layman) you could argue it's because they're not very reactive, and this lack of reactivity…
This is probably one of the most prominent studies till date: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38446676 Microplastics and nanoplastics in atheromas and cardiovascular events. N Engl J Med. 390(10):900-910, 2024. Summary: People with artherial plaque that contains micro- and nano-plastics have a higher risk of death during the followup period. It's an observational study, sample size is not too big, but some findings l…
Last year I moved to a house with a greenhouse and started gardening, and was surprised not only by the amount of plastics used, but by the amount of UV unstable plastics used.
- Previous owner used polyester string to tie up plants, which now just disintegrates whenever I touch it. I had to go out of my way to find jute twine.
- I bought agricultural fabric to cover plants during spring. I left it at the top of the greenhouse over the summer to provide shade. By autumn it was disintegrating as it was not UV stable. Again I had to go out of my way to buy a UV stable polyester sheet that I will use now.