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Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

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Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#91

Post by erik_seaberg »

lurkshark wrote: post #39
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.

Sometimes I wonder if you framed it differently would it be more appealing to tech workers. Like if there was a startup that negotiates on behalf of employees for salary, benefits, remote vs in-office, etc. using collective influence as more people from a particular company used it. Or to put it another way, how much of the distaste for unions is wrapped up in the term “union”?

Only with market discipline, by making that company compete with others representing pools of workers. A union chooses not to do that.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#92

Post by nothercastle »

dangbutserious wrote: post #87
cut3 wrote: post #17

Amazon tech workers should unionize.

[dead]

Competent devs are not the target demographic. There are more incompetent than competent people and appeasing one alienates the other. It’s simple math you need to get to 50% so you optimize for outcomes

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#93

Post by kelseyfrog »

Manuel_D wrote: post #83
kelseyfrog wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appears to me that software developers reject unions beyond what can be explained by economics alone. I'm not sure how that turned into "economics aren't a factor." Maybe you can explain how that happened?

You've edited or deleted your comment at least 3 times since I typed my reply. Regardless, I'm just going to highlight the relevant parts of the comment I responded to: > It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions.

Ok. Beyond for me means that there is a part that can be explained by economic and a part that exceeds economics. I hope that clarifies.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#94

Post by nothercastle »

snapcaster wrote: post #19
golemiprague wrote: post #2

The advantage of working from home was that you could take care of kids and do all the housework, this worth thousands of dollars per months. For years companies didn't adjust salaries in accordance to inflation and the cost of outsourcing kids care and house care, all that while keeping interest rate low and bailing rich bankers with printing of money. This caused funneling of wealth from the workers to asset holder…

Isn't this kind of proving the point of RTO from the company's point of view? If you're taking care of your child and doing housework instead of working?

It would be if people were hourly. But devs are all salary so hours should not matter and besides Amazon generally wants more then 40hrs of work anyway

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#95

Post by nothercastle »

rybosworld wrote: post #50

It doesn't seem like a coincidence that Amazon's RTO is being paired with a middle manager haircut. With less middle managers, the executives are probably thinking they'll need individual contributors physically present in order to monitor them effectively. I still can't imagine why anyone agrees to work at a place that treats it's employees like children.

Money

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#96

Post by [deleted] »

Manuel_D wrote: post #86
lurkshark wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I wonder if you framed it differently would it be more appealing to tech workers. Like if there was a startup that negotiates on behalf of employees for salary, benefits, remote vs in-office, etc. using collective influence as more people from a particular company used it. Or to put it another way, how much of the distaste for unions is wrapped up in the term “union”?

There's more to a union than just negotiating on behalf of employees. Unions have quasi-government status wherein the National Labor Relations Bureau can just step in and force the company to make business decisions. Furthermore, unions aren't optional in a lot of states. If you want to work a certain job at a company, you have no choice but to join the union (or at least pay union dues). Something like the National…

[deleted]

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#97

Post by Manuel_D »

nothercastle wrote: post #90
Manuel_D wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no law saying a union can't fight for things besides salary. But in practice that's what it's often about. Take the NYTimes tech worker union, for example (previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41504026 ). It really only has 2 objectives on its platform: indefinite remote work, and "pay equity". Notably, their objective is for pay equity regardless of different representation across dif…

Union incentive align mostly to more members not more salary or benefits. Similar how companies tend to go for more revenue unions benefit more from additional member and less from higher salaries

The two are not mutually exclusive. The incentive for seniority-based pay is that low-performers are dissatisfied with lesser career advancement, so they form a block within the union electorate and vote in leadership that flattens pay.

You are correct that unions are also incentivized to increase membership, that's why unions often oppose more efficient work practices. More efficiency reduces the number of personnel needed to perform the job. An example of this is the longshoremen's unions in the US. They have consistently rejected the automation that most other developed countries have long-since adoped [1]. The result? American ports are some of the least efficient in the world, despite also being quite expensive [2].

1. https://apnews.com/article/longshoremen-strike-pay-automatio...

2. https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstrea...

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#98

Post by [deleted] »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #93
Manuel_D wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've edited or deleted your comment at least 3 times since I typed my reply. Regardless, I'm just going to highlight the relevant parts of the comment I responded to: > It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions.

Ok. Beyond for me means that there is a part that can be explained by economic and a part that exceeds economics. I hope that clarifies.

[deleted]

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#99

Post by Manuel_D »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #93
Manuel_D wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've edited or deleted your comment at least 3 times since I typed my reply. Regardless, I'm just going to highlight the relevant parts of the comment I responded to: > It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions.

Ok. Beyond for me means that there is a part that can be explained by economic and a part that exceeds economics. I hope that clarifies.

Right, and my point is that is it completely explained by economic reasoning. One way or another, you are rejecting the notion that software developers are capable of arriving at anti-union positions on the basis of economic reasons alone. You insist, without evidence or justification, that there must be some other motivation beyond economics.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#100

Post by golemiprague »

snapcaster wrote: post #19
golemiprague wrote: post #2

The advantage of working from home was that you could take care of kids and do all the housework, this worth thousands of dollars per months. For years companies didn't adjust salaries in accordance to inflation and the cost of outsourcing kids care and house care, all that while keeping interest rate low and bailing rich bankers with printing of money. This caused funneling of wealth from the workers to asset holder…

Isn't this kind of proving the point of RTO from the company's point of view? If you're taking care of your child and doing housework instead of working?

[dead]
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