Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 121 posts

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#81

Post by Manuel_D »

ryandrake wrote: post #68
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.

I think a lot of people (especially tech employees and HN commenters) have this idea from the 80s and 90s of what a union must be, like they are all necessarily just like a Teachers' Union. Usually bad stereotypes like "Unions rank members by tenure and reward only the old timers!" and "Unions make it so only union members can plug a cord into an electrical outlet!" and "Unions only negotiate for salary, never things…

There's no law saying a union can't fight for things besides salary. But in practice that's what it's often about.

Take the NYTimes tech worker union, for example (previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41504026). It really only has 2 objectives on its platform: indefinite remote work, and "pay equity". Notably, their objective is for pay equity regardless of different representation across different jobs. So not even "equal pay for equal work" but rather "equal pay for different work".

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#82

Post by kelseyfrog »

Manuel_D wrote: post #79
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.

No, it's solidly within the calculus of economics. Why are you concluding that rejection of unions are due to a cultural or personal disdain for unions, and rejecting the possibility that software developers disapprove of unions for economic reasons? The economic calculus is pointing against unions: effectively every trade union creates tenure-based pay structures, which don't reward high performers and punish people…

I appears to me that software developers reject unions beyond what can be explained by economics alone.

I'm not sure how that turned into "economics aren't a factor." Maybe you can explain how that happened?

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#83

Post by Manuel_D »

kelseyfrog wrote: post #82
Manuel_D wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's solidly within the calculus of economics. Why are you concluding that rejection of unions are due to a cultural or personal disdain for unions, and rejecting the possibility that software developers disapprove of unions for economic reasons? The economic calculus is pointing against unions: effectively every trade union creates tenure-based pay structures, which don't reward high performers and punish people…

I appears to me that software developers reject unions beyond what can be explained by economics alone. I'm not sure how that turned into "economics aren't a factor." Maybe you can explain how that happened?

You've edited or deleted your comment at least 3 times since I typed my reply. Regardless, I'm just going to highlight the relevant parts of the comment I responded to:

> It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#84

Post by Manuel_D »

jmward01 wrote: post #10

I wonder what drives these decisions? Is there that much solid evidence that they get more value out of people in the office rather than home? Or are there other reasons like tax incentives that encourage in-person work over remote? Is this just a control thing or or there a compelling argument that I am missing?

There is a decent body of evidence suggesting in-person work is more efficient than remote work: https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2023/06/28/t...

At the scale of Amazon, it's hard to pass up even a single-digit increase in productivity. Furthermore, they're in a position where they have the clout and prestige to attract the workforce they need.

Remote work is still probably a good decision for smaller companies, where they might struggle to hire if they don't offer remote work. A less productive worker is still better than not hiring a worker at all.

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#85

Post by [deleted] »

Apocryphon wrote: post #32
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.

Temporarily embarrassed 10x engineers

[deleted]

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#86

Post by Manuel_D »

lurkshark wrote: post #39
kelseyfrog wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.

Sometimes I wonder if you framed it differently would it be more appealing to tech workers. Like if there was a startup that negotiates on behalf of employees for salary, benefits, remote vs in-office, etc. using collective influence as more people from a particular company used it. Or to put it another way, how much of the distaste for unions is wrapped up in the term “union”?

There's more to a union than just negotiating on behalf of employees. Unions have quasi-government status wherein the National Labor Relations Bureau can just step in and force the company to make business decisions. Furthermore, unions aren't optional in a lot of states. If you want to work a certain job at a company, you have no choice but to join the union (or at least pay union dues).

Something like the National Press Photographer's Association [1] is a valuable organization. They provide resources like contract templates, and can help if a customer doesn't pay the agreed royalties and whatnot. But membership isn't mandatory. A software developer's association and a software developer's unions would be to vastly different groups.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Press_Photographers_A...

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#88

Post by nothercastle »

letitgo12345 wrote: post #21
nightfly wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a sneaky way of doing layoffs, everyone who won't comply has to "quit"

It's an excellent way of getting your best people who have options to quit while the worst ones who don't are forced to stick around

Does Amazon do anything that requires best people anymore? They could probably survive on decidedly mediocre

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#89

Post by nothercastle »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #52
jmward01 wrote: post #10

I wonder what drives these decisions? Is there that much solid evidence that they get more value out of people in the office rather than home? Or are there other reasons like tax incentives that encourage in-person work over remote? Is this just a control thing or or there a compelling argument that I am missing?

There is certainly no data, even though Amazon has a reputation for being data driven. Amazon has tried hard to not talk about it, but friends who work there said that their internal surveys let any employee see the results, and that Amazon’s own data shows that remote work is actually more productive. So instead of admitting that, the company’s leaders like Andy Jassy have come up with vague claims like the office e…

I have heard similar reports

Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages

#90

Post by nothercastle »

Manuel_D wrote: post #81
ryandrake wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of people (especially tech employees and HN commenters) have this idea from the 80s and 90s of what a union must be, like they are all necessarily just like a Teachers' Union. Usually bad stereotypes like "Unions rank members by tenure and reward only the old timers!" and "Unions make it so only union members can plug a cord into an electrical outlet!" and "Unions only negotiate for salary, never things…

There's no law saying a union can't fight for things besides salary. But in practice that's what it's often about. Take the NYTimes tech worker union, for example (previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41504026 ). It really only has 2 objectives on its platform: indefinite remote work, and "pay equity". Notably, their objective is for pay equity regardless of different representation across dif…

Union incentive align mostly to more members not more salary or benefits. Similar how companies tend to go for more revenue unions benefit more from additional member and less from higher salaries
Post reply on HN