Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would Amazon prefer that to layoffs or more aggressive performance standards?
Less liability.
Its not been my experience that changing expected work requirements causes you to have _less_ liability than layoffs.
Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
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Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#72Jassy needs to go. Either kick him back down to AWS or kick him to the curb.
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#73Earlier quoted context omitted.
The management want return to office and that's it. Why does there need to be something "driving the decision"? You may as well ask why I want my cleaner to descale the bottom of my taps. There may well be no reason beyond aesthetic preference. Maybe it's not more profitable or less profitable. Maybe it's within margin of error, and maybe the people running Amazon for the most part prefer working in an office.
Usually peoples' wants are explainable. It's certainly not uncommon to be able to explain one's wants when their implementation affects others, especially in a negative way. "I want you to return to the office." "Why?" "Just do." Is so unfulfilling a response that it's stupid on the part of management to not have even a noble lie explaining why it's so.
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Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#74Earlier quoted context omitted.
The management want return to office and that's it. Why does there need to be something "driving the decision"? You may as well ask why I want my cleaner to descale the bottom of my taps. There may well be no reason beyond aesthetic preference. Maybe it's not more profitable or less profitable. Maybe it's within margin of error, and maybe the people running Amazon for the most part prefer working in an office.
Usually peoples' wants are explainable. It's certainly not uncommon to be able to explain one's wants when their implementation affects others, especially in a negative way. "I want you to return to the office." "Why?" "Just do." Is so unfulfilling a response that it's stupid on the part of management to not have even a noble lie explaining why it's so.
My desire for the bottom of my taps to be descaled is not explainable.
I can make up reasons - I can say, it looks better because it's more visually ordered, it's shiny and it looks nice, family and friends I invite over have this arbitrary bias too and so they'll look more kindly on me... etc.
But at the end of the day I just want the taps descaled and my cleaner does it for me.
It sounds really as if what it comes down to is that you want more ownership over your job than what is being offered. Amazon are saying, explicitly, this is our decision, agree or disagree, we're doing it.
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#75Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.
I think a lot of people (especially tech employees and HN commenters) have this idea from the 80s and 90s of what a union must be, like they are all necessarily just like a Teachers' Union. Usually bad stereotypes like "Unions rank members by tenure and reward only the old timers!" and "Unions make it so only union members can plug a cord into an electrical outlet!" and "Unions only negotiate for salary, never things…
>bad stereotypes like "Unions rank members by tenure and reward only the old timers!" and "Unions make it so only union members can plug a cord into an electrical outlet!"
This isn't a "bad stereotype", this is purposely pushed propaganda, and it sits on the shelf next to the training video you watch about how horrible unions get in the way of you negotiating with the company all by your lonesome, and the poster that says "Don't give a union $300, buy an Xbox instead"
The reason that tech workers hate unions is that it's a highly middle class male employee field, and they were targeted hardest by anti-union propaganda for a century.
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#76Unions in the UK are nothing short of a broken promise, collecting fees from workers while offering little in return. It’s infuriating to see how they portray themselves as champions of the working class, yet when push comes to shove, they’re nowhere to be found. They’ll happily take your hard-earned money month after month, selling you the idea that they’ll fight for your rights. But when you actually need them—when management is pulling the rug out from under you—their usual response is something along the lines of, "Well, there’s not much we can do when management has already made a decision." Really? That's what we pay for?
The truth is, they’re masters of taking credit when it benefits their public image. When a company backtracks on an unpopular decision, it’s often due to public outrage or fear of bad PR, but the unions will still swoop in and claim victory. They act like they’ve led the charge, when in reality, they were sitting on the sidelines, waiting for someone else to force management’s hand. It’s a performance, and a poor one at that, designed to justify their existence. And let’s not even start on how little they’re actually doing to protect workers in an increasingly precarious job market. They’re loud when they want to be heard but silent when it truly counts. The whole thing is a farce, and it's time we stopped pretending unions are still the powerful advocates they once were. They're not. They're out of touch, ineffective, and quite frankly, taking advantage of the very people they’re supposed to be defending.
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#77Amazon tech workers should unionize.
Curious what percentage of Amazon SWEs are H1B, because in my experience people who's ability to live in this country is tied to their continued employment are highly reticent to do anything that might rock that boat (like sign a union card).
Which brings up an interesting question of it someone in the US on a work visa is permitted to participate in a work stoppage. Would going on strike be considered a period of unemployment that puts them on the clock for getting deported?
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#78I wonder what drives these decisions? Is there that much solid evidence that they get more value out of people in the office rather than home? Or are there other reasons like tax incentives that encourage in-person work over remote? Is this just a control thing or or there a compelling argument that I am missing?
It's basically all anecdotal, like most management principles. But there does seem to be a number of managers across the tech industry concluding that in-person work is more effective, that the covid period of remote work was an experiment that did not work.
This isn't an opinion shared by everyone, which in my opinion is a good thing. Some people prefer all-remote teams, some people prefer a mix, and some prefer to work on teams where remote work is not allowed. I think everyone should find a workplace that is suited to what they want.
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#79Amazon tech workers should unionize.
It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.
No, it's solidly within the calculus of economics. Why are you concluding that rejection of unions are due to a cultural or personal disdain for unions, and rejecting the possibility that software developers disapprove of unions for economic reasons?
The economic calculus is pointing against unions: effectively every trade union creates tenure-based pay structures, which don't reward high performers and punish people who change jobs. This makes it hard to retain high performers as they can get better offers from non-unionized companies, and selects for the low performers that stand to benefit under a tenure-based pay structure.
Furthermore, unions routinely block advancements that improve efficiency, because it would reduce the amount of workers required. This is beneficial for the union, which has its membership artificially inflated. But it's bad for society as a whole. Unionized workplaces are routinely the least efficient companies on account of this. For instance, longshoremen's unions in the US have widely blocked automation at ports. The result? American ports are some of the least efficient in the world, despite costing on par with other developed countries. We all bear the cost of this inefficiency in terms of more expensive supply chains, which in turn makes products throughout the country more expensive than they should be.
Re: Backlash over Amazon's return to office comes as workers demand higher wages
#80Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a thought, but ceteris paribus, software engineers seem to have a particular scorn for unions beyond the calculus of economics. In other words, there is a personality/sub-cultural disdain for unions. I see it as an extension of a distaste for bureaucracy or perhaps, social structures in general, but I'm open to other perspectives.
No, it's solidly within the calculus of economics. Why are you concluding that rejection of unions are due to a cultural or personal disdain for unions, and rejecting the possibility that software developers disapprove of unions for economic reasons? The economic calculus is pointing against unions: effectively every trade union creates tenure-based pay structures, which don't reward high performers and punish people…
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