ESR: Abusing Alan Turing • Hacker News Board

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#21

Post by jameshart » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 7:58 PM UTC

ESR is wrong.

On his birthday, Letters of note published this letter from him on the eve of his trial: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/06/yours-in-distress-alan..... Turing's own words:

"I'm afraid that the following syllogism may be used by some in the future.

Turing believes machines think Turing lies with men Therefore machines do not think

Yours in distress,

Alan"

This suggests Turing was greatly concerned with how society's attitude to his sexuality affected how he might be perceived by history, and how that might undermine even the impact of his ideas. That society has moved past those prejudices and is able to look back at his work with admiration, and shame for his treatment, is a gratifying refutation of his fears, not a convenient retelling of his story to fit modern agendas.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#22

Post by fusiongyro » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:01 PM UTC

zbuc wrote: post #4

jgrahamc wrote: post #2

"The centennial of Alan Turing’s birth brings us the news that Alan Turing probably did not commit suicide by eating a poisoned apple, was not depressed at the time of his death, and that the hormone treatments intended to suppress his homosexual urges had been discontinued a year before he died." Raymond is referring to this BBC article: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18561092 It was (distastefully IM…

> 4. The article also likes to try to downplay everything negative. For example, "It is often repeated that the chemicals caused him to grow breasts, though Turing is only known to have mentioned this once." The second clause seems to be the most important. Well, thank goodness, maybe he didn't actually grow breasts. Must not have actually have been that bad being forced to take hormones for no good reason. There's a…

> ESR should be ashamed.

For saying that Turing should be remembered for his accomplishments rather than for the circumstances of his death?

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#23

Post by mhartl » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:07 PM UTC

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting of genuine giants (Turing, Noether) and in the creation of false greats (Lovelace, Carver).

Not that ESR is not contradicting any of the following:

  * Alan Turing lived in a society generally intolerant of homosexuals
  * Anti-gay oppression is bad
  * Triumph over adversity is laudable

To see where ESR is coming from, imagine that people knew Einstein as "a physicist whose persevered in the face of antisemitism". ESR might say, "Yes, yes, antisemitism, etc., but the man helped lay the foundations of quantum mechanics and discovered both special and general relativity. His triumph over antisemitism is at most a footnote to his story." To which the HN commentariat might reply, "OMG, I can't believe that guy hates Jews!"

To ESR (and to many other non-progressives), this sort of politically motivated myth-making diminishes the object of the myth. When he writes "Yes, yes...", what he's saying is and it's just so damn tiresome.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#24

Post by mhartl » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:17 PM UTC

mtraven wrote: post #18

> "Yes, yes, repression, anti-gay prejudice, I know all right-thinking people are supposed to be horrified by such things" You know, the academic jargon about "white male privilege" is kind of cliched, but this quote could serve as the poster child for what they are talking about. "yes, yes, repression, how tedious, how gauche to bring it up" when talking of homosexuals -- but try enacting some gun control legislatio…

My comment at http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4158468 addresses some of your concerns.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#25

Post by mhartl » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:20 PM UTC

papsosouid wrote: post #17

Yes of course Eric, it's all just liberal propaganda. We should all hate gays just like you since a bullshit article claims Turing was pretty happy. Certainly people who advocate for basic human rights are just "partisans".

Who would you have decide which rights are "basic human rights"? I'm guessing it's people like you, i.e., progressives. If that's not partisan, I don't know what is.

I also fear you've misunderstood ESR. See http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4158468 for a clarification.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#26

Post by zbuc » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:22 PM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #22

zbuc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. The article also likes to try to downplay everything negative. For example, "It is often repeated that the chemicals caused him to grow breasts, though Turing is only known to have mentioned this once." The second clause seems to be the most important. Well, thank goodness, maybe he didn't actually grow breasts. Must not have actually have been that bad being forced to take hormones for no good reason. There's a…

> ESR should be ashamed. For saying that Turing should be remembered for his accomplishments rather than for the circumstances of his death?

Yes.

Isn't it even more disheartening to know that such a thing could happen in an "enlightened" society to someone who had such great accomplishments? It was a complete lack of respect of basic human dignity, and people shouldn't forget that, especially presently when the issue(of gay rights) is finally entering the mass public eye. People should be aware of the results of oppression, it makes them more compassionate.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#27

Post by scott_s » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:24 PM UTC

mhartl wrote: post #23

It's evident from some of the comments that many HN readers have misunderstood ESR's points about Alan Turing. What ESR is saying is that "a homosexual who committed suicide because of anti-gay oppression" has become a key part of the Turing narrative, not because of the facts of the matter, but because it serves the political agenda of those who propagate the myth. This dynamic manifests itself both in the co-opting…

I read through some of the comments. Raymond is clearly arguing that Turing was not the victim of oppression. The mental gymnastics he contorts through to arrive at this conclusion are baffling.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#28

Post by lmm » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:41 PM UTC

mithaler wrote: post #6

I must be missing something. Is there anyone who actually thinks Turing wouldn't be worth remembering if he hadn't been mistreated for being gay?

Church (arguably) contributed as much or more to computer science, but is not idolised in the same way as Turing.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#29

Post by portlander12345 » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 8:42 PM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #22

zbuc wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. The article also likes to try to downplay everything negative. For example, "It is often repeated that the chemicals caused him to grow breasts, though Turing is only known to have mentioned this once." The second clause seems to be the most important. Well, thank goodness, maybe he didn't actually grow breasts. Must not have actually have been that bad being forced to take hormones for no good reason. There's a…

> ESR should be ashamed. For saying that Turing should be remembered for his accomplishments rather than for the circumstances of his death?

For the company he keeps. Comment on that blog enough and pretty soon a regular will threaten to come to your house and beat you up. This has happened to me twice and I've seen it happen to others; multiple perps, regulars and seemingly friends of ESR.

Basically, the crowd he attracts is smart in some ways but uncivilized. It's a waste and a disappointment.

Re: ESR: Abusing Alan Turing

#30

Post by fusiongyro » Mon, Jun 25, 2012, 9:08 PM UTC

zbuc wrote: post #26

fusiongyro wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ESR should be ashamed. For saying that Turing should be remembered for his accomplishments rather than for the circumstances of his death?

Yes. Isn't it even more disheartening to know that such a thing could happen in an "enlightened" society to someone who had such great accomplishments? It was a complete lack of respect of basic human dignity, and people shouldn't forget that, especially presently when the issue(of gay rights) is finally entering the mass public eye. People should be aware of the results of oppression, it makes them more compassionat…

The problem is that the assertion that Turing killed himself because of oppression is not founded on facts. We'll never know why he killed himself--we may not even be sure he did kill himself. I believe gay rights are an important issue, and certainly evil things were done to Turing. No truths need to be bent to support this cause--and no cause benefits from illusory bolstering by half-truths and semi-lies.

People should be aware of oppression, it does make them more compassionate, but usually when people find out they've been lied to, manipulated to support a cause, they react by rejecting the cause, sometimes violently. That's a lot worse for your cause than whatever benefit you might wring out of having Turing for a spokesman.