Any time you are on anything other than your own site on your own hosting, you are subject to the rules and whims of someone else, no exception, end of story. Furthermore, you are never free from consequences, regardless, which is what a lot of people, if not most, mean when they demand freedom of speech. No one is required to listen to you, regardless of the truth or falsity of your proposition and they are free to react, short of violence, in a manner that reflects their own values and judgement. This is a condition of being a free, autonomous human. To have it any other way is to remove a portion of that autonomy from someone. Certain speech is curtailed by society when the exercise of that speech would create or exacerbate harm to some protected individuals. You might disagree with some of those limitations, but until a majority of people think the same as you, those limitations will continue to exist.
Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
61–70 of 113 posts
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem is that what is legal should not be decided by social media platforms or their users but by the law & the courts. But most often this is not the case.. maybe the OP is addressing this issue.
This is basically X's position – they will enforce countries speech laws, no more, no less. But OP says: > Other places such as x/twitter, has some liberty but not very much. Real subjects are not getting through. So I'm not sure if they're saying that isn't what X is doing, or that they're criticising X for not going beyond the law (illegally), or that perhaps they feel that some legal speech is not treated equally?
It may be their stated position, but not their practice, as has been recently demonstrated in Brazil.
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#63I'm having trouble even understanding the question, because I think your usage of "free speech" means something different than is normally intended. Free expression and free will always have an implied caveat, like "free will except where it impedes that of another". Free speech is always going to have a Venn diagram with "behavior", some of which is illegal. So if you're asking where you can go do illegal stuff, tha…
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#64Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sounds like the problem (for a platform like this) is that they have "business goals" in the first place. Freedom of speech shouldn't be up for sale, especially when it comes to discussing sensitive topics and creating a for-profit business around that would do just that.
so people shouldn't create apps/tools/sites where others can communicate with each other unless they're willing to forgo any moderation? how does that work?
Secondly, my point is that if you do have a service that is trying to optimize for freedom of expression, mixing in needing to earn money on top of that, is bound to leave you almost penny-less, as advertisers don't like an environment like that and people needing to be anonymous aren't as happy to donate.
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#65Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#66I would laugh hard in someone's face if someone told me reddit didn't censor to a huge degree. Mind you, I doubt this will ever be the case as there's very few humans on reddit anymore.
About 4 months ago I was testing to see how many humans were actually on the site. I'd get >1,000 upvotes everyday, many comments but nobody was real. I don't know if reddit themselves do this to make the website look less dead than it is, or just other people's bots. Doesnt matter.
I was in a subreddit that was autism related, the person didnt share their gender or anything to identify. I responded to them having an obgyn as if they were female. They got extremely mad at me for misgendering them. I got an official warning from reddit admins for hate targeting trans people.
Couple weeks later, I as a trans person was talking about a trans issue and got a 7 day ban. Within hours I got unbanned on appeal. I absolutely did not break any rules or target anyone.
After reviewing, the Reddit admin team found that the content wasn’t in violation of Reddit’s rules. As a result, the content has been restored and your ban or warning has been lifted.
I haven't been back. Reddit is a complete joke. The gall as well for them to ask if I wanted to invest in their IPO at basically the same time as this because I was a big account.
Facebook? They probably manage censorship best, less false positives, but their actual censorship is still censorship. So erm... not going to waste my time.
HN? Worse than reddit. dont waste your time going to my profile to downvote all my posts.
X? Only platform I know that doesnt have much censorship. But it's not without. I couldn't tell you how many automotive mechanics who say tra-anny and end up instantly suspended. Those mechanics probably didnt care about us trans people, now they hate us. They see us as censoring their speech. Not working as intended.
It's an impossible task to censor without unintended consequences. Elon firing 90% of the staff and having the website work better was because censorship takes a ton of effort. Some words have multiple meanings. Sometimes the person meant to add a NOT or something but failed, their messaging being the opposite of their intention.
I would say X is doing the best job overall. No other platform do you have Nick Fuentes revealing to all that he's a nazi rat. A feature you cant have when censorship is in place.
Gab/Parler that's where nazi rats go.
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#67I'm having trouble even understanding the question, because I think your usage of "free speech" means something different than is normally intended. Free expression and free will always have an implied caveat, like "free will except where it impedes that of another". Free speech is always going to have a Venn diagram with "behavior", some of which is illegal. So if you're asking where you can go do illegal stuff, tha…
They also as much as said "There's places where you can do this but they're cesspools" which almost makes me feel like the real question is "Is there any way I can have the experience of moderated discussion without any risk of me being moderated?" to which the answer is 100% "Yes, your own forum, but don't be surprised if other people aren't sold on the value proposition."
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#68> The places that aren't moderated are filled with political crap such as to tarnish their credibility, so that the people will stay away by their own will. This implies _intent_. I mean, it sounds like what you want is just a different content policy, really? A ban on politics? Would make for a rather boring social media site, I suspect; everything is ultimately politics.
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#69I'm having trouble even understanding the question, because I think your usage of "free speech" means something different than is normally intended. Free expression and free will always have an implied caveat, like "free will except where it impedes that of another". Free speech is always going to have a Venn diagram with "behavior", some of which is illegal. So if you're asking where you can go do illegal stuff, tha…
They also as much as said "There's places where you can do this but they're cesspools" which almost makes me feel like the real question is "Is there any way I can have the experience of moderated discussion without any risk of me being moderated?" to which the answer is 100% "Yes, your own forum, but don't be surprised if other people aren't sold on the value proposition."
Another answer to this is "Yes, with proper rules and moderation, you can keep your cake and eat it too".
First off, have a rule that every created thread in this forum need to have some sort of "basis for discussion". Any thread that doesn't, gets closed.
Secondly, have a rule that states that any posts in the threads need to be at least somehow related to the topic, and posts that are not nonsense or off-topic.
Thirdly, have a moderation team that is well aligned, and favors quality posts, removing the rest of the shit.
The end result is a forum where you can discuss any topic, as long as your own posts also add to the conversation, not just try to shut others down or post off-topic/nonsense.
Sure, it will contain opinions you disagree with, but it won't be a cesspool of just casual racism.
(These ideas are all based on a real forum online today where essentially any topic can be discussed without fear of facing real-life consequence for the opinions you hold, assuming your anonymous)
Re: Ask HN: Is there any place on the internet capable of freedom of speech?
#70well there's your problem
Your post has a lot of political baggage - unchecked assumptions like "I want a free speech space but not the political crap" - embedded in it. Free speech is an inherently political concept, and stripping the "political crap" out of it is the heart and soul of censorship. Furthermore "political" as an adjective tends to be used by people (and, in my limited experience, right-wingers specifically) to complain about political speech they disagree with personally.
Absent a coherent political ideology to agree with or refute, I'll instead substitute my own political baggage and hope you can take something out of it.
There's a couple of different definitions of censorship that people use, but the one that tends to resonate well with hacker communities - "the EFF Consensus" - is that censorship is spicy packet loss. This is why we spend time and money on building infrastructure intended to obfuscate traffic from third-party routers as an anticensorship tool. This definition works well for, say, the Great Firewall of China and less so for, say, Kiwi Farms or extreme far-right blogs.
The word "free" in English is overloaded; it can mean both "free of charge" and "freedom to do something". The "free speech" I've been talking about so far is freedom to speak; but we also need to talk about the actual costs of speaking. On the Internet, we have "Cheap as Free[0] Speech"; as in, all the various costs of distributing speech are low enough that such services can usually be provided on an unmetered basis. The problem with Cheap as Free Speech is spam. The rules of market-based resource allocation imply that offering something for no cost means anyone can take as much as they like.
Markets are not the only way to allocate resources, but they are the easiest to enforce[1]. Absent that, however, Internet services have to invent other means of rationing access based on the information that they have. This is why spam filters exist. The problem is that, even if you're trying to be as even-handed as possible, you're going to fuck up and people aren't going to agree with every one of your filtering choices. This can read as censorship, because it kind of is, but it's also necessary for any of these services to work at all.
The alternative - of not doing any sort of filtering - does not create a working platform. At the very least, nobody can speak because they are being talked over by spam. This is a paradoxical "censorship by free speech".
Anyway, I have a pet theory about Nazi bars.
The canonical explanation of the "Nazi bar" is that a platform with no moderation or an "apolitical" moderation policy will inevitably become far-right. You see, the far-right does not believe in or respect freedom of speech[2], they just see it as a stepping stone to seizing control. If they feel welcomed, everyone else leaves, either preemptively or reactively.
My hunch is that most Nazi bars actually, y'know, decide to become Nazi bars. Because it's profitable. Nazis are whales. i.e. Donald Trump did not merely show up one day on Twitter, start pushing far-right ideology, and not get pushed out. Twitter management (a decade ago) saw Trump doing numbers on the platform and actively decided to give him special permissions and privileges[3]. Same goes for a lot of other far-right influencers; who spent a good decade radicalizing the rich into becoming far-right influencers.
Of course, pre-Musk Twitter did not merely want to become a Nazi bar. They also wanted to become a Tankie Bar, a Libertarian Bar, an Anarchist Bar, a Zionist bar, an Islamist bar, a Christian Nationalist bar, etc. The very loudmouthed "anti-censorship" platforms (i.e. Gab) are more explicitly Nazis only; like I'm pretty sure I'd get banned off Gab or Truth Social if I started posting left-libertarian stuff there.
The underlying idea is that...
- Online platforms have to have moderation, or they don't work at all;
- There are a lot of people who want to create online platforms to push their own ideology, some of which get mislabeled as "free speech";
- and all platforms have profit incentives to amplify extremist voices.
The political baggage I'm referring to is that you appear to have bought into the kind of "free speech" that the far-right likes. That is, nothing stopping them from calling for the censorship of others. This is destructive to actual efforts to fight censorship.
[0] http://www.hrwiki.org/wiki/Cheap_as_Free
[1] Related historical point: the transition to money economies happens specifically because of the need of conquering armies to track taxation.
[2] Which is why I don't consider it censorship when they get censored. Pick a political ideology that does not blatantly violate the 1st Amendment, then I will defend your right to speak with my life.
[3] i.e. the World Leaders Policy