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How America's universities became debt factories

anandsanwal.me

541–550 of 564 posts

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#541
As an European this sounds lunatic. I pay +-600€ a year for my masters (bachelor coasts the same) and this 600€ also include a train ticket for all local trains in Germany.

Idk why there are so few US people coming here. Honestly our universities have their weaknesses as well but I think they can definitely compete with the average US university.

You have to account for something like 1k living cost per month if you are a bit lucky and don’t eat in restaurants every day. By working part time u can easily live of your salary.

I think the us is famous for its student loan system and it’s a way of separating poor people from people with better situated parents. We do this in Europe too but here we do it a bit more “hidden” and mostly in Highschool.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. That's why the article's saying you should be able to declare bankruptcy. > And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI.…

> "Teaching is relatively well paid" Compared to what? In the US, teachers are absolutely underpaid relative to their similarly-educated and -skilled peers in other professions.

Compared to degrees that could struggle on average to pay back a loan, e.g. a degree in the humanities.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#543
post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you seem to care about I care about having actual definitions of what "more competitive market" and "vigorous market for education" means, and gave examples of markets with significant market failures. Is it even possible to have a vigorous market without strong government oversight?

> define more competitive markets - Is it even possible? Yes it is, and I am using it in the traditional sense of "Sellers vying to make their offerings more compelling so consumers prefer them to alternatives". A more competitive market has more of the above fighting happening, which can be incentivized in several ways. Specifically for the US, I already gave a massive truck-sized example of how you can make offerin…

I agree that non-dischargeable debt for education was a horrible change, given the predatory response of the colleges and collusion between the increasing power of the administrative class over the university and the capitalists providing debt funding.

However, removing that does not fix the underlying political goal of assuring access to higher education, which Johnson back in 1965 described as "no longer a luxury, but a necessity". https://archive.org/details/4730960.1965.001.umich.edu/page/...

US schools are increasingly extractive because if higher education is indeed necessary then it is economically beneficial for someone to go to college - so long as the result is more profitable than not going to college. If the college charges less than that (or rather, the college + debt industry), then they leave money on the table.

There is little interest in providing quality low-cost education because it is capital intensive, and capitalists want to maximize their profits. As the recent news about rent collusion shows, capital owners will collude to extract more profits.

> the pendulum swung too far

This has been a trope since the 1960s when the right started their culture war against college education as the post-GI bill era meant college was no longer a place primarily for the children of the privileged classes.

That is, be specific - when was the pendulum enough in the other direction that you wouldn't have complained thusly? It seems you like the 1960s, when the right complained about ivory tower academics filling student brains with anti-American nonsense.

> reductions in permanent salaried academic positions

We have that. These are called adjunct professors. "Editorial: U.S. colleges are overusing — and underpaying — adjunct professors" / "The American Assn. of University Professors reports that 70% of faculty are adjunct, most of them without benefits, job security or union representation; they teach more than half of all college courses in the U.S."

They are also poorly paid, exactly as you would expect from an extractive industry.

How low should it be? 20% 10%? But in the 1960s in the era you praise, those numbers were much higher, back when academic positions included significant administrative responsibilities.

If you really want to remove "administrative bloat", remove administrators.

> garnished wages from placed-into-their-trained field employees

Ahh, so you follow the meat widget model of college education. Got a degree in physics but decide to open a chocolate boutique? Sorry, you'll need to pay back your education first.

It costs a lot to go to med school, so those who go often end up in debt, which means they need to get jobs which pay enough to pay back that debt, which means they can't afford to provide medical care to poor communities.

It costs a lot to become a lawyer, which is one of the factors for public defenders are 1) needed, and 2) so overworked.

Besides, we've had similar policies for a long time. I had teachers back in the 1980s whose agreed to debt relief for their teacher education which contingent on being a teacher for enough years.

I've also heard stories about the consequent problems in such a bureaucratized system.

> see both European and US models collaborate harder on job and work placement as part of ensuring student success

There is no "European model". The UK has a very different system than Germany, for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_education_system

In Germany: "After passing through any of the above schools, pupils can start a career with an apprenticeship in a Berufsschule ( vocational school). Berufsschule is normally attended twice a week during a two, three, or three-and-a-half-year apprenticeship; the other days are spent working at a company. This is intended to provide a knowledge of theory and practice. The company is obliged to accept the apprentice on its apprenticeship scheme." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany

How is that not exactly what you are asking about?

> The common bailiwick that needs to die is that Europeans don’t pay for college

I'm really tired of people doing the "I'm so clever" comment that "you know that 'free health care' isn't free, right"? That extends to people pointing out that "free college education", and "free K-12 education" and "free school lunches" and "free tampons" and "free condoms" aren't actually free.

Like, duh. It's just name-calling implying I'm ignorant, and therefore you don't need to take me seriously.

Did you know that freeways aren't actually free, but depend on tax funding?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#544
How hard is it to just go to the public university in most states? Where I live, you can get your tuition completely covered if you keep a B average. Young people can get whatever degree they want without having to worry about debt as long as they have decent academic ability.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#546

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> complex debt instruments They are not complicated. Compound interest is middle school arithmetic. Too bad the public schools are inept at teaching math. I received a modest tuition loan when I went to college. There was no mystery about it. I made the payments after I graduated, and paid it off.

Username checks out. :) Ya the arithmetic is easy. Building up the associated algebraic expression(s) though is certainly high school level where I’m from. I wish I understood why math education is the way it is. I really have no idea. I suspect the problem’s complexities are both wide and deep

no one actually good at math is going to become a K-5 teacher, they’re gonna get paid, so it creates a doom loop where each new generation of primary school teachers get progressively shittier at math.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#547
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

> The people agreeing to these debts, by definition, do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. I mean it's a pretty simple concept that you borrow money and you must pay it back. However we agree that the failure is that we do not educate them enough already in the first 12 years we force upon them. For that I blame a lack of options, government "standards" which become ceilings…

canadians are highly educated yet their economy is in the absolute shitter. i know which country id rather live in.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was born in the mid-70s, and nobody told me "Just go to college, any college, and major in anything." That was never the narrative. It was "Go to a top-N college, major in one of these very carefully enumerated majors that tend to result in good career trajectory (business, engineering, medicine, and so on), and maintain a very good GPA throughout." The messaging was very clear, from parents, teachers, and guidance…

I grew up in the latter half of the 90's and the narrative I remember was that it was a time when even like entry-level secretary jobs started requiring degrees (a phenomenon which may or may not have been exaggerated), and the reasoning was "it doesn't matter what it's a degree in, they just want to see that you have the capability to see something through to the end and not drop out"

was still told this and i graduated college in 2024. it did work out for me, but for the vast majority of ppl in my graduating class, unless they double majored from B School or did a proper STEM degree, they’re unemployed

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#549
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> at the time we were all dumb 14-17 year olds who didn’t care This is not teaching, it’s a fabrication Can you teach swimming to a guy who has never left Sahara desert and has never seen water? Can you teach teaching driving to a guy who’s never touched a car? Then how do we teach finance/banking to a kid who has never earned a salary, paid bills, and probably never even held more than $100 at all?

those are false equivalencies. you can teach someone about financial concepts, without having the actual monies. These are not physical activities requiring actual mediums like driving or swimming. They are mental concepts - an extension of critical thinking and maths, with a bit of instruction following mixed in.

Good luck. In math, it's extremely difficult to teach the mental concepts and critical thinking. Unless you have a gifted teacher, most schools just teach you rote memorization and solving countless duplicate problems that use the same technique.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) I do not agree with applying this retroactively. You shouldn’t change the rules in the middle of the game. 2) it would be unfair to make universities participate in the downside but not the upside. Perhaps the federal government should also turn the interest earned over to universities. This could actually go some way towards lessening resistance.

1) The game has been rigged since the beginning and the unis have been the biggest beneficiaries and the most malignant actors. You don't think they knew damn well what they were doing by charging $100k+ in tuition for an English degree to an 18 year with no hope of paying back the loans used to pay the tuition? 2) The universities have already gorged themselves at the greed-pig trough. How is it you think they can a…

This. And football coaches $1M+.
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