Earlier quoted context omitted.
The first profession AI seems on track to decimate is programming. In particular, the brilliant but remote and individual contributor. There is an obvious conflict of interest in this forum.
I see this theory a lot but mostly from people who haven’t tried pair coding with a quality llm. In fact these llms give experienced developers super powers; you can be crazy productive with them. If you think we are close to the maximum useful software in the world already, then maybe. I do not believe that. Seeing software production and time costs drop one to two orders of magnitude means we will have very differe…
Terence Tao on O1
421–430 of 527 posts
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#422It performs way better than undergrads. Funny he didn’t point that out but only made some slight to it about being a bad graduate student. Don’t believe me, open the book and ask away. It’s amazing, even if it is a “mediocre graduate student” which is far better than a good graduate student or professor that gives you no help or time for all that money you forked over.
It’s already worth the money, ignore this shitty write up by someone they doesn’t need its help.
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#423Once GPT is tuned more heavily on Lean (proof assistant) -- the way it is on Python -- I expect its usefulness for research level math to increase. I work in a field related to operations research (OR), and ChatGPT 4o has ingested enough of the OR literature that it's able to spit out very useful Mixed Integer Programming (MIP) formulations for many "problem shapes". For instance, I can give it a logic problem like "…
I entirely agree about their utility. HN, and the internet in general, have become just an ocean of reactionary sandbagging and blather about how "useless" LLMs are. Meanwhile, in the real world, I've found that I haven't written a line of code in weeks. Just paragraphs of text that specify what I want and then guidance through and around pitfalls in a simple iterative loop of useful working code. It's entirely a lea…
Comment on first principles:
Following the dictum that you can't prove the absence of bugs, only their presence, the idea of what constitutes "working code" deserves much more respect.
From an engineering perspective, either you understand the implementation or you don't. There's no meaning to iteratively loop of producing working code.
Stepwise refinement is a design process under the assumption that each step is understood in a process of exploration of the matching of a solution to a problem. The steps are the refinement of definition of a problem, to which is applied an understanding of how to compute a solution. The meaning of working code is in the appropriateness of the solution to the definition of the problem. Adjust either or both to unify and make sense of the matter.
The discipline of programming is rotting when the definition of working is copying code from an oracle you run it to see if it goes wrong.
The measure of works must be an engineering claim of understanding the chosen problem domain and solution. Understanding belongs to the engineer.
LLMs do not understand and cannot be relied upon to produce correct code.
If use of an LLM puts the engineer in contact with proven principles, materials and methods which he adapts to the job at hand, while the engineer maintains understanding of correctness, maybe that's a gain.
But if the engineer relies on the LLM transformer as an oracle, how does the engineer locate the needed understanding? He can't get it from the transformer: he's responsible for checking the output of the transformer!
OTOH if the engineer draws on understanding from elsewhere, what is the value of the transformer but as a catalog? As such, who has accountability for the contents of the catalog? It can't be the transformer because it can't understand. It can't be the developer of the transformer because he can't explain why the LLM produces any particular result! It has to be the user of the transformer.
So a system of production is being created whereby the engineer's going-in position is that he lacks the understanding needed to code a solution and he sees his work as integrating the output of an oracle that can't be relied upon.
The oracle is a peculiar kind of calculator with a unknown probability of generating relevant output that works at superhuman speeds, while the engineer is reduced to an operator in the position of verifying that output at human speeds.
This looks like a feedback system for risky results and slippery slope towards heretofore unknown degrees of incorrectness and margins for error.
At the same time, the only common vernacular for tracking oracle veracity is in arcane version numbers, which are believed, based on rough experimentation, to broadly categorize the hallucinatory tendencies of the oracle.
The broad trend of adoption of this sketchy tech is in the context of industry which brags about seeking disruption and distortion, regards its engineers as cost centers to be exploited as "human resources", and is managed by a specialized class of idiot savants called MBAs.
Get this incredible technology into infrastructure and in control of life sustaining systems immediately!
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#424Re: Terence Tao on O1
#425Re: Terence Tao on O1
#426Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see this theory a lot but mostly from people who haven’t tried pair coding with a quality llm. In fact these llms give experienced developers super powers; you can be crazy productive with them. If you think we are close to the maximum useful software in the world already, then maybe. I do not believe that. Seeing software production and time costs drop one to two orders of magnitude means we will have very differe…
I abandoned 3D art after witnessing DALL-E 2's capabilities, and I've observed the ripple effects across creative fields. Initially, photographers and fellow artists dismissed AI as a non-threat. That turned out to be misguided optimism. Now, with Midjourney producing such impressive work, the majority of us have become largely obsolete. These days, I'm noticing developers exhibiting the same denial. From my perspect…
Are legitimate companies genuinely switching to Midjourney over hiring artists now, or is Midjourney usage still mostly happening in places that previously wouldn't have commissioned custom illustrations at all (instead using things like stock photography)?
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#427Earlier quoted context omitted.
I get really good results with TypeScript and Python. Like it knows exactly what I want to do, I feel like I think exactly as Copilot does. Maybe I am the statistical average... Makes me wonder if people who don't like Copilot output will not like my natural output as well.
Feel free not to share, I don’t want you to get dogpiled, but if you would humor me, Could you share any code on GitHub (or pastebin or whatever) that you wrote with the help of AI? Or could you share what kind of experience you have with programming (how many years, what domain you work in, etc)
I have around 10+ years of professional experience although I did on/off hobby coding before that since 15 years ago.
It's mostly API endpoints, calling a database, third party APIs, data transformation, aggregation type of things.
Then either UI according to what designers provide or whatever I want to do for my side projects.
I think it's of course wildly more productive multiplier for side projects, since then it's mostly about typing things out since you know exactly what you want to do and being a little off doesn't matter.
I don't want to share any of my actual code right now, but I think one example for example is a React component that needs to fetch some sort of data, e.g. using @tanstack/react-query, then it does loading handling, error handling boilerplate things for me, which some of I change to what I specifically need for that situation, but I need very few keystrokes myself to get the initial boilerplate out that I then edit, and during edits it of course also gives me decent suggestions. And it will create the component prop types based on the args I pass to the component etc.
Then with backend, it's really good at data transformations. E.g. combining different datasets, reducing etc.
How well it picks the correct libraries and patterns depends on the project and I think how much I've navigated around, I'm not fully sure how the context is exactly passed, so usually I will feel it out and adapt code where necessary.
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#428Rewind your mind to 2019 and imagine reading a post that said “The experience seemed roughly on par with trying to advise a mediocre, but not completely incompetent, graduate student.” With regard to interacting with the equivalent of Alexa. That’s a remarkable difference in 5 years.
Even more amazing, there plenty - PLENTY - of posters here that routinely either completely shit on LLMs, or casually dismiss them as "hype", "useless", and what have you. I've been saying this for quite some time now, but some people are in for a very rude awakening when the SOTA models 5-10 years from now are able to completely replace senior devs and engineers. Better buckle up, and start diversifying your skills.
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#429Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mostly agree. Until ChatGPT, I'd have agreed with all of that. > Helping a group of people reach a solution everyone is happy with has little to do with technology. This one specific thing, is actually something that ChatGPT can help with. It's not as good as the best human, or even a middling human with 5 year's business experience, but rather it's useful because it's good enough at so many different domains that it…
We're currently in the shiny toy stage, once the flaws are thoroughly explored and accepted by all as fundamental I suspect interest will fade rapidly. There's no substance to be found, no added information; it's just repeating what came before, badly, which is exactly the kind of software that would be better off not written if you ask me. The plan to rebuild society on top of this crap is right up there with basing…
Re: Terence Tao on O1
#430Earlier quoted context omitted.
The first profession AI seems on track to decimate is programming. In particular, the brilliant but remote and individual contributor. There is an obvious conflict of interest in this forum.
The programmers who will find LLMs most useful are going to be those who prior to LLMs were copying and pasting from Stack Overflow, and asking questions online about everything they were doing - tasks that LLMs have precisely replaced (it has now memorized all that boilerplate code, consensus answers, and API usage examples). The developers who will find LLMs the least useful are the "brilliant" ones who never found…
Notes: https://simonwillison.net/tags/ai-assisted-programming/