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Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

economist.com

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Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#51

Post by Krssst »

ViewTrick1002 wrote: post #32
bluescrn wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't do nuclear because it's expensive, and that's why it stays expensive. No economies of scale, minimal opportunities to iteratively improve designs. Solar was expensive until we started building a lot of it (often due to heavy subsidisation)

We tried tons of nuclear power. It peaked at 18% of the global electricity mix in the 90s. Comparatively solar sits at 5.5% today but is rapidly increasing. If 18% of the global electricity mix is not trying hard enough then the technology did not work out. The cost savings never materialized, it’s always been a case of negative learning by doing. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S03014...

Nuclear power successfully decarbonized almost the entire French electricity grid. The only case I know of of a large industrialized country without heavy hydro resources managing to almost remove fossil fuels from electricity generation. Maybe it's expensive (still less than in Germany which chose NREs, coal and gas), but it's also the only solution proven to work.

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#52

Post by natenatenate3 »

bandyaboot wrote: post #48

So if I understand correctly, you create a network of fractures that connect to two boreholes and you pump water into one and out the other. Won’t the fractures erode significantly over time? Do we know what happens when we continuously erode a network of fractures deep underground? And won’t the amount of water that’s required to stay pressurized get larger and larger as the fractures erode?

They fracture the granite and prop it open with sand or other materials, it doesn't really erode the same as surface granite, which is extremely slow to erode as is.

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#53

Post by iknowstuff »

rpmisms wrote: post #18
rabf wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Our gyrotron-powered drilling platform vaporizes boreholes through rock and provides access to deep geothermal heat without complex downhole equipment. Based on breakthrough fusion research and well-established drilling practices, we are developing a radical new approach to ultra-deep drilling." This company looks promising in the geothermal space. They are looking to be able to create 10km boreholes in 100 days. Th…

Looks amazing as a disruptor in the space, but I also want to say that Gyrotron is an excellent name for a device. Very industrial.

like a futurama striptease robot

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#54

Post by natenatenate3 »

MichaelNolan wrote: post #5

I wish the best for the geothermal industry, but the phrase “could outperform” is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Geothermal thermal has essentially zero growth, in the US, in the last 20 years. And there is basically no growth planned in the near future, or at least nothing on the EIA’s or FERC’s upcoming generation list. I’m skeptical that geothermal will ever make a significant impact in the US. Though it might make…

Look up Fervo Energy, I think you will be surprised how quickly their method will grow and expand as they gain more experience with their current projects.

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#55

Post by atomic128 »

No amount of batteries can protect a solar/wind grid from an arbitrarily extended period of "bad" weather. It's like range anxiety in an electric car. If you have N days of battery storage and the sun doesn't shine for N+1 days, you're in trouble.

Nuclear fission is the answer.

Today there are 440 nuclear reactors operating in 32 countries.

Nuclear fission is expensive up-front but once built the power plant can last 50 years (maybe 80, maybe more) and the uranium fuel is very cheap, perhaps 10% of the cost of running the plant.

This is in stark contrast to natural gas, where the plant is less expensive to build but then fuel costs accumulate rapidly. And natural gas is a poor choice if you care about greenhouse gas emissions.

Sam Altman owns a stake in Oklo, a small modular reactor company. Bill Gates has a huge stake in his TerraPower nuclear reactor company. Oracle announced that it is designing data centers with small modular nuclear reactors:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41505514

In China, 5 reactors are being built every year. 11 more were announced a few weeks ago. You just don't hear about it... yet.

Nuclear fission is safe, clean, secure, and reliable.

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#56

Post by Reason077 »

jbm wrote: post #21
theluketaylor wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm not sure large scale geothermal electrical production will ever be a thing outside some specialized locations like Iceland. I do think geothermal has a part to play, specifically for heating and cooling of neighbourhoods and multifamily developments. The construction has to move a ton of dirt anyway, so might as well install some ground loops while you're at it. If you're forced to drill due to site conditi…

While I agree with you generally, the price I was given was $50k for geothermal heat pump all in. Considering my house has risen in value by 200k over the past 3 years and I intend on it being a permanent family home, it's really not out of the question, especially considering the potential increase in extreme heat events and the impacts on energy. I understand people see this as an underperforming investment but I i…

Was that for a deep bore (vertical) or shallow (horizontal) system?

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#57

Post by danielbln »

atomic128 wrote: post #55

No amount of batteries can protect a solar/wind grid from an arbitrarily extended period of "bad" weather. It's like range anxiety in an electric car. If you have N days of battery storage and the sun doesn't shine for N+1 days, you're in trouble. Nuclear fission is the answer. Today there are 440 nuclear reactors operating in 32 countries. Nuclear fission is expensive up-front but once built the power plant can last…

Is this satire or from an LLM. Amidst the very measured praise for the wonder with no downsides that is fission, user atomic123 seems to have missed that this article is about geothermal energy.

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#58

Post by bhauth2 »

Veedrac wrote: post #49
bhauth2 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article you linked is about conventional geothermal wells, which drill into reservoirs of hot water; they just have hotter water than has been typical. Extracting hot water is not limited by thermal conductivity of rock, but what Quaise plans to do is. Enhanced geothermal involves fracking. Typical proposals involve creating crack paths between 2 nearby wells by fracking from both. It's been tested some but so fa…

Thanks for the reply! I'm afraid I'm not really following the argument though. I don't have the technical background to judge how economical EGS is or not, I just want to understand this energy-based argument. I checked to be sure, and Quaise's initial plans (per cofounder Matt Houde) are indeed EGS-based[1], just deeper. It seems correct to me that if they succeeded at building wells that way, they would produce at…

> It's entirely possible that EGS just doesn't work at really deep depths as you state here, but this seems like a qualitatively different argument to the one presented in the article.

A different argument to the one presented in the article, you say. Huh.

I suppose I can't claim to know more about geothermal than the author of that blog post, but if you check again, you'll find it does mention EGS. Apparently something made the author decide the problems with Quaise using that are non-obvious enough to need explanation.

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#59

Post by Veedrac »

bhauth2 wrote: post #58
Veedrac wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the reply! I'm afraid I'm not really following the argument though. I don't have the technical background to judge how economical EGS is or not, I just want to understand this energy-based argument. I checked to be sure, and Quaise's initial plans (per cofounder Matt Houde) are indeed EGS-based[1], just deeper. It seems correct to me that if they succeeded at building wells that way, they would produce at…

> It's entirely possible that EGS just doesn't work at really deep depths as you state here, but this seems like a qualitatively different argument to the one presented in the article. A different argument to the one presented in the article, you say. Huh. I suppose I can't claim to know more about geothermal than the author of that blog post, but if you check again, you'll find it does mention EGS. Apparently someth…

cf. "but I wish they finished writing the equations out"

The article mentions EGS but, as far as I could tell, only seemed to present it to contrast it with the claim that Quaise is using a worse single-bore strategy.

If I'm just misreading, and it sounds like you're saying I am?, it'd be really helpful to show your working so I can see where the models are differing. There is a factor 100 difference somewhere, it shouldn't be that hard to spot!

Re: Geothermal energy could outperform nuclear power

#60

Post by jbm »

Reason077 wrote: post #56
jbm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you generally, the price I was given was $50k for geothermal heat pump all in. Considering my house has risen in value by 200k over the past 3 years and I intend on it being a permanent family home, it's really not out of the question, especially considering the potential increase in extreme heat events and the impacts on energy. I understand people see this as an underperforming investment but I i…

Was that for a deep bore (vertical) or shallow (horizontal) system?

Deep bore, sadly I don't think I have enough space for a horizontal system
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