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How America's universities became debt factories

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Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#321

Post by saagarjha »

adityamwagh wrote: post #268
ghaff wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of smart people who get liberal arts degrees from top schools do just fine. I know plenty of them even though I have engineering degrees myself. They may not get FAANG salaries in general--unless they end up in management--but plenty of people I know are just fine.

I see a problem here. Why are English majors in Management positions? With LLMs, I don't see a value on an English degree anymore. So I personally believe it's just a money sink at this point. I don't believe art can be taught in universities as a degree program. Universities should only be for domains that have tangible value.

LLMs are the exact antithesis of what an English degree teaches you: how to communicate effectively and with context, and to understand nuance in what other people say. LLMs make things that sound good but have no real depth to them.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#322

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

>>> 1) move most careers...out of the country....to the benefit of shareholders.

You've hidden very carefully the causality in this sentence. Who moved them? Why? Its perhaps implied that since shareholders benefited, that they did it. Yet a careful examination reveals quickly the elephant in the room in that thesis: why did outsourcing now, and not before, if the benefit to shareholders has always been there? why did this happen mostly in the US, and not other countries?

Of course, the reality is far more complex and reveals that the road for manufacture hollowing in the US was a road paved with good intentions. History is there for anyone who wants to read it.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#323

Post by lapcat »

Telemakhos wrote: post #315
lapcat wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I…

> I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt In humanities fields, if the department thinks you belong in the program, they pay you to attend. They'll give you fellowships, TAships, and RAships. If they don't give you those, they're telling you not to attend. This is a harsh truth.

That's not generally true. I attended a state university, and the department simply didn't have the funding to pay for its graduate students.

However, I did in fact receive some TAships and lectureships while I was there, and even a dissertation fellowship. They didn't pay well though.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#324

Post by CatWChainsaw »

bilater wrote: post #66

The education-politician complex as we know it will face a dramatic reckoning in the next few years. Many mid-tier universities are likely to go under. Perhaps, as a society, we will rethink how education is attained. In a world shaped by AI, maybe kids will take MOOCs just for fun.

Or maybe kids will have AI generate minecraft levels and porn of their classmates just for fun...

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#325

Post by bobthepanda »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #322
lenerdenator wrote: post #89

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

>>> 1) move most careers...out of the country....to the benefit of shareholders. You've hidden very carefully the causality in this sentence. Who moved them? Why? Its perhaps implied that since shareholders benefited, that they did it. Yet a careful examination reveals quickly the elephant in the room in that thesis: why did outsourcing now, and not before, if the benefit to shareholders has always been there? why di…

There is outsourcing in places like the EU but it looks different and takes place within it, because the wealth disparities between EU countries are so much greater and US GDP per capita is so high. The state with lowest GDP per capita, Mississippi, is on par with Belgium.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#326

Post by adityamwagh »

saagarjha wrote: post #321
adityamwagh wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a problem here. Why are English majors in Management positions? With LLMs, I don't see a value on an English degree anymore. So I personally believe it's just a money sink at this point. I don't believe art can be taught in universities as a degree program. Universities should only be for domains that have tangible value.

LLMs are the exact antithesis of what an English degree teaches you: how to communicate effectively and with context, and to understand nuance in what other people say. LLMs make things that sound good but have no real depth to them.

You might understand this but I would like to believe and employer won't.

Anyways, my main point is universities should focus more on tangible skills - accounting, engineering etc and should not have random useless degrees of little value. Maybe English major is still valuable, but I personally don't see the tangible value in it - other than being an English teacher.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#327

Post by cheese_van »

labcomputer wrote: post #305
zozbot234 wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.

That’s only because doctors collude to limit the number of available residency places. I programmers were smart, they would: 1. Lobby the government to prohibit anyone from practicing programming without a license. 2. Limit the number of licenses granted each year

Available residency slots are dictated by the funding made available through the Medicare program and ultimately Congress.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#328

Post by stefan_ »

haberman wrote: post #227

I agree with the article's diagnosis: the system is out of control, with no market forces are in place to keep costs in check. It's unsustainable for students to take on this level of debt. I'm not sure I agree with the solutions though. Making student loan debt dischargeable doesn't make a lot of economic sense. We're talking about 17-year-olds with no income and no collateral. Why would any lender want to be in thi…

Why do brands market to young people? Why do people buy stocks that make no profit and never have?

It's never about today.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#329

Post by [deleted] »

chrisweekly wrote: post #103
robertlagrant wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Say you major in comp sci (or some other high-paying field) but shortly after graduation something happens which prevents you from working in the field. Sucks to be you. That's why the article's saying you should be able to declare bankruptcy. > And likewise it sets up universities to, as you say, "cut courses with poor returns." Like for example "teaching", because school teacher pay is crap, so it has a poor ROI.…

> "Teaching is relatively well paid" Compared to what? In the US, teachers are absolutely underpaid relative to their similarly-educated and -skilled peers in other professions.

[deleted]

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#330

Post by jmoak »

honksillet wrote: post #24

- the government should not be guaranteeing these loans - they should be dischargeable in bankruptcy That’s it.

and if nobody is willing to lend to these students any longer because their field of study won't yield enough income to pay back a loan... well, mission accomplished
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