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How America's universities became debt factories
291–300 of 564 posts
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#292Earlier quoted context omitted.
It looks like graduate debt was approaching the majority and could in fact be a majority in 2024: "If these trends continue, graduate loan disbursements may exceed undergraduate disbursements in the next few years." https://sites.ed.gov/ous/files/2023/08/OCE_GraduateDebtRepor...
You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt, which is what the original assertion was on. Either way it is looked at though, their assertion is wrong.
> You're conflating current disbursements with the outstanding debt
No, I was just googling for stats, and that's what I was able to find. Here's something else though: "46% of federal student loan debt belonged to graduate student borrowers in 2017." https://educationdata.org/average-graduate-student-loan-debt
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#2931) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…
5) Don't forget the massive rise in tuition. My brother went to college a few years before me, and by the time I got there (born before 1990), the price was double what it was his first year. It was only 2 years of increases.
6) Only allow help for families making under a certain amount, so those from abusive homes are shit out of luck.
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#294I think it's really sad that we so reflexively consider universities vocational training that criticism of universities so often includes "offering degrees that won't get you a job" Actually academia predates the push to gate jobs behind undergraduate degrees, and trying to repurpose these institutions that mainly exist to train and employ researchers to be fully general vocational schools has been a disaster in ever…
If you would like to study something economically useless I have no problem with that. If you ask me to pay for it, I do. It isn't the business of society at large to fund anyone who wants to study whatever they want.
Academia does predate its role as employment gatekeeper, but it was privately funded then.
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#295Earlier quoted context omitted.
Most good employers, especially in tech, don't require degrees these days.
the vast majority of employers will not work with you without a degree, its viewed almost equivalently to being a felon.
I have never had issues getting interviews with every FAANG along with other large F500 companies.
I’ve gotten offers as well.
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#296Earlier quoted context omitted.
You're correct except for one word: "lucrative". To this day, almost two decades after I left my philosophy PhD program (without a PhD), I still have massive student loan debt. Even if I had completed my degree, though, philosophy PhDs aren't particularly lucrative. Tenured professors at major universities do ok, but the road to getting tenure-track jobs and then tenure is littered with the bodies of grad students. I…
Well, the OP did say “the bulk of” — some people, like you, are surely carrying debt for non-lucrative degrees. But the pipeline of lawyers, doctors, MBAs, etc. is quite a bit larger than self-pay philosophy PhDs, and a large fraction of those professional degrees are full-freight, $70k/year (plus living expenses!) of pure debt.
Not all lawyers and doctors are the same. Consider public defenders. And physician compensation can vary dramatically depending on whether they're a general practitioner or specialist, rural or urban, etc.
Ironically, the ones we need the most are paid the least.
Of course, that's assuming students finish their degrees and get jobs. Plenty of people drop out of school, and they don't get refunds! Law students fail to pass the bar, etc.
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#297I agree with the article's diagnosis: the system is out of control, with no market forces are in place to keep costs in check. It's unsustainable for students to take on this level of debt. I'm not sure I agree with the solutions though. Making student loan debt dischargeable doesn't make a lot of economic sense. We're talking about 17-year-olds with no income and no collateral. Why would any lender want to be in thi…
FWIW, most of my friends in undergrad would openly flaunt the way they were spending their student loan money (weed, video games, new spoiler for their car, etc.). This was not the exception, as far as I could tell.
So the age thing goes both ways - 17 year olds are too young to make smart financial decisions, both about whether to get a loan, and how to spend it.
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#298Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's worth noting, by the way, that the United States has a shortage of medical doctors. That's a pipeline problem. What the U.S. actually has is a severe bottleneck in available places at medical schools and for residency training.
What the U.S. actually has is a group of people intent on keeping their doctor wages high by limiting supply through regulation and bottleneck creation.
As a med school dropout (best decision of my life), were I to "go back" to early college: I would have instead pursued a BSN (which my college offered!), to set myself up into eventually becoming a nurse practitioner. That way, if I decided to not complete graduate school, I'd still have an applicable role/job within medicine. Were I to have graduated that program, I also would have been able to practice much earlier (albeit limited scope, per US State).
Instead, what does an uncredentialled Chemistry Bachelor do after dropping out of medical school? ...I became an electrician, which allowed me to help people without sacrificing my lifestyle.
If your goal also includes "make substantial sums of money," I always recommend to preMeds they consider all the different ways someone can make money helping people without having to sacrifice your entire early adulthood.
The majority of my medschool classmates refer to me as "the dumbest smart guy they know," but in confidence several have expressed jealousy at not having to work so much (for IMHO so little, as physicians). Just cogs in an overly-complex, wealth-extracting machine...
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#299Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, the OP did say “the bulk of” — some people, like you, are surely carrying debt for non-lucrative degrees. But the pipeline of lawyers, doctors, MBAs, etc. is quite a bit larger than self-pay philosophy PhDs, and a large fraction of those professional degrees are full-freight, $70k/year (plus living expenses!) of pure debt.
Not all lawyers and doctors are the same. Consider public defenders. And physician compensation can vary dramatically depending on whether they're a general practitioner or specialist, rural or urban, etc. Ironically, the ones we need the most are paid the least. Of course, that's assuming students finish their degrees and get jobs. Plenty of people drop out of school, and they don't get refunds! Law students fail to…
Yes, and indeed, this is exactly the argument used by the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, in which public defenders / nonprofit lawyers / rural nonprofit doctors’ loans are written forgiven after 10 years of public service so they are not saddled with a lifetime of debt they can’t pay off due to choosing careers in public service. You’re in a supposedly “lucrative” career with a high debt load, but choosing not to pursue the typical high-income pathway.
That program has many gotchas, but at least this reflects a recognition that debt creates incentives that society may not want.
Re: How America's universities became debt factories
#300I’ve said it before on HN and I’ll say it again: I don’t support any reform with respect to student loans that doesn’t see the academic institutions participate in the pain. I’d like to see a large number of universities get bankrupted by assuming some portion of the student loan liabilities of their alums, then allow the alums to file bankruptcy if they can’t pay off any remaining balances. Did you know that federal…
1) I do not agree with applying this retroactively. You shouldn’t change the rules in the middle of the game.
2) it would be unfair to make universities participate in the downside but not the upside. Perhaps the federal government should also turn the interest earned over to universities. This could actually go some way towards lessening resistance.