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How America's universities became debt factories

anandsanwal.me

221–230 of 564 posts

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#221
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been a lot of socialist countries that were proper and strong democracies, notably India. The result? Hundreds of millions in abject poverty in India until socialism was given up in the 90s, and is slowly recovering.

Funny you say that, Karnataka is an outlier beating its peers in all quality of life metrics and has been run by communist for decades. Also, modern day India has a very strong government intervention bias, especially regarding lifting people out of poverty. Be it investments in infrastructure (such as running water), or downright giving food to people. Good luck explaining how that isn't "socialism" to an American.

> Funny you say that, Karnataka is an outlier beating its peers in all quality of life metrics and has been run by communist for decades.

You mean Kerala, not Karnataka.

And conversely, West Bengal was ruled by the Communists since the 1970s to the early 2010s, yet it's developmental indicators have regressed to those comparable to some of the poorest states of India.

Conversely, right leaning and nativist Himachal Pradesh (if you ain't Pahadi or Pahadi-adjacent we will give you the cold shoulder, and both the state chapters of the HP INC and BJP trace their origins to the RSS and Arya Samaj) has developmental indicators that can match Kerala and other traditionally richer states in India.

At the end of the day, all that matters is administrative capacity, not ideology.

If local government is held accountable, it will work hard to deliver.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your opinion were correct the degrees would pay for themselves and we wouldn't be having these discussions. We have people paying $160k a year to study in fields that are increasingly having their fundamental research completely debunked and exposed as fraudulent (see Political Science and Pyschology). There is also absolutely 0 reason these degrees should cost so much. If we want to keep a guaranteed student loan…

The degrees do pay for themselves on average. Bachelor's degreeholders have median earnings $525/week higher than high school graduates ( https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2022/data-on-display/educa... ), which over the course of a career would cover even the most egregious student debt loads. That's precisely why it's a hard problem; we could just warn kids not to jump into the debt trap if it weren't genuinely wort…

I heard an interesting fact a couple of days ago,

The median student that graduated from college starting in 2009 had more debt than what they started with after 12 years and it's only gotten worse.

So your belief that it will cover the most egregious is not true for the median student. Given that, I'm also interested in how those lifetime earnings increases are distributed across degrees.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

I'm trying to figure out if you missed a 0 at the end of your rent...

My apartment shared with three other roommates in that era was $750 (four bedrooms and a giant living room in a trendy neighborhood of a decent sized city). So $150 checks out.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#224
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

> The people agreeing to these debts, by definition, do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. I guarantee you that law/med school students have an education in "complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged." Because before the current law was passed, they were the ones abusing the old "complex debt instruments" to discharge debt they knew they'd be able to pay back once th…

You flew too close to the sun. You can’t argue with a bunch of people who are in debt and learned that playing the victim pays.

It’s funny. That everybody is mad at the banks and schools. But the politicians and do good laws passed are what caused all of this.

Banks did it want to give loans out for shitty degrees to people who would probably not pay them back. So laws were passed to force banks they had to give out loans.

Schools did not want to accept everybody, but only the top of class. But laws were passed forcing them to widen their acceptance criteria.

This creates the perfect storm we are in.

Before the system was self limiting. Banks only gave out loans for degrees and to people who had high probability to pay back. Schools accepted only the best students who had a high probability of succeeding.

The loans were low risk, high reward, and the schools were able to provide a higher level of overall education to those who did go.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#225
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

Exactly - 12 years of education to get children ready to be citizens and not single class on how to manage a bank account, or even the most basic education about investments or actual wealth building. Instead, all I was told was to go to college. So... the people that made me woefully sheep like and "financially innocent" then sent me to the wolves because they believed in me. Seriously, they made huge changes to the…

You are a good writer. Like the original post.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#226

I wonder why there's no mention of a free education as an alternative solution to the broken system

Many states do operate tuition-free programs for residents at their public colleges. But students with good grades often prefer to take a large amount of debt rather than go to the local state school, and it's not clear how you would go about changing that.

This. If you want education to be cheaper or free, you'll need to give up some amount of choice.

Most states in the US already have public university systems, but that isn't where most of the debt comes from.

Everyone wants to go to Harvard, Stanford, Princeton, etc.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#227
I agree with the article's diagnosis: the system is out of control, with no market forces are in place to keep costs in check. It's unsustainable for students to take on this level of debt.

I'm not sure I agree with the solutions though. Making student loan debt dischargeable doesn't make a lot of economic sense. We're talking about 17-year-olds with no income and no collateral. Why would any lender want to be in this business? Who will lend to students if the debt is dischargeable?

The article's solution is to essentially make the school the co-guarantor of the loan, such that the school absorbs part of the financial impact of student default. Ok, but now the school has a direct financial stake in the student's overall finances. Do you really want to have that kind of relationship with your school? Do you want an admissions process that is partially trying to decide if you're financially responsible? Do you want your school pressuring you to choose a more lucrative major? Do you want communications from your school reminding you that it's important to be making good financial decisions? If your school is co-guarantor of your loan, it's their business to make sure you're going to repay on time.

There has to be an element of responsibility that falls to the borrowers themselves. It's true that a 17-year-old does not have the experience to know for themselves how much debt is reasonable, especially when they cannot necessarily predict their future earnings. But there has to be some incentive to borrow less. I don't think it's healthy if student can borrow with abandon, safe in knowing that they can just discharge the debt in a few years if it doesn't work out.

Ideally students would be voting with their feet, and would make it clear to colleges that the cost of tuition is a significant factor in their decision. But I guess prestige and tradition are so powerful that people will want to go to name-brand colleges no matter the cost.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#228
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

Woah, you were paying off that debt with interest from 2005 to 2021? Damn I’m happy to live in a country with free university.

I too live in country with free university, and yet I'm also paying off student loans. Tuition may have been free, but rent and food wasn't.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#229

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

I feel like the key thing missing from this discussion are the employers who still demand these degrees. Let's say we reformed both higher education and student loans - does that have any meaningful impact on the demand side beyond pushing the salaries of degree holders up (thus increasing the value of a degree, thus making larger loan values easier to justify, thus...)

If we stopped subsidizing the degrees less people would have them, but employers would still need the same number of employees. They would be forced to drop necessary degree requirements or go understaffed.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#230

I don't know if this is some kind of heresy, but here we go. I don't think universities provide much value at all to the common student who is not going to be a PhD. I went to a very well-known institution known for putting the students in a room with the professors, maybe two or three students, to one professor. My economics professor taught me one on one. I still think, in the end, the work is mostly done alone, in…

I also attended a well-known institution and this was precisely my experience of university. I stayed home and read the textbook, supplementing with materials online, hardly attending lectures at all.

I had paid for university almost entirely out-of-pocket with earnings from co-operative internships in software; when "real-life" problems started to rear their ugly head, the choice came down to incurring debt or working in a (still to this day) lucrative industry.

What was the point? Why join the rat race of my peers who would rush through the material, only for it to be forgotten amidst the torrent of next semester's information? Does this style of studying actually produce a level of erudition equal to or greater than one who obsessively pores over the literature at their own pace, taking their time to slowly digest and process and crystallize the information in their mind? Or have they just found the most expedient route past the gatekeepers of higher education and diplomas?

I would much rather do exactly what I did in university - read through the material on my own terms and take time to digest it at my own pace, but without the crippling debt. That said, I still very much view education as a privilege, open to those of financial means, who have the opportunity to put aside several years' worth of earnings and time to pursue academic studies, irrespective of practical application. I am reminded of a second-year philosophy professor who took half a lecture to explain how the purpose of higher education is not as a vocational school to bring one wealth and employment (taking shots perhaps at the career focus of the institution's co-operative program), but rather to give one a more fulsome perspective of the world and enrich their intellectual life - not in hopes of some mundane, worldly reward, but for its own sake.

Had I the wealth, I would love to go back to complete a degree, not for practical employment prospects or even prestige, but to (at least attempt to) feel intellectually whole. A merit based system of standardized testing that awards degrees based on examination performance would be right up my alley, for I could prepare myself to meet its demands at my own pace and according to my terms; I consider the hacker spirit of measuring the quality of a software solution not according to the attributes of its author (wealth, status, degree, or otherwise), but on whether or not the code works correctly and efficiently adjacent to this sentiment. For everyone else, there's debt - and I can't justify making that decision.

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