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How America's universities became debt factories

anandsanwal.me

171–180 of 564 posts

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#171

> Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy again. I would like to see the author back this up with more considerations. Bankruptcy disappears from all credit reports after seven years. The average age of first time home buyers is 35. So if a new grad’s credit is trashed from the age of 23-30, it makes no difference to them - they are not planning on using credit for anything substantial anyways. What is going t…

What's going to stop young people from declaring bankruptcy immediately after doing anything?

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#172
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

Woah, you were paying off that debt with interest from 2005 to 2021? Damn I’m happy to live in a country with free university.

1.5% interest is well under the rate of return I got in the market over that period. I was making minimum payments the whole time.

The payments were tiered somehow. I think I was paying around $50 a month when I graduated and that ended up at like $140 by the time I paid it off.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#173
post #136

> Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy again. I would like to see the author back this up with more considerations. Bankruptcy disappears from all credit reports after seven years. The average age of first time home buyers is 35. So if a new grad’s credit is trashed from the age of 23-30, it makes no difference to them - they are not planning on using credit for anything substantial anyways. What is going t…

I would rather see us switch to an income based repayment schedule with discharge at 30 years, seems fair to the student and society.

Yeah just make it dischargeable after X years. It would be fair even to current holders of student loans.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#174
post #13

Seems like a good overview, but I do find this bit unclear: "But why don’t market forces correct these issues? The answer lies in the unique shield that non-dischargeable student loans provide to educational institutions and lenders. In a normal market, if a product consistently fails to deliver value, consumers stop buying it. Producers either improve or go out of business. But in the world of higher education, this…

> I went to Georgia Tech over other universities because it was in-state and Georgia has generous scholarships for students with good grades. So why does competition among schools not lower costs?

All the schools have access to loans that are guaranteed to be repaid. We still have the mindset that degrees are required for employment (I'm not commenting on whether that's good or bad; that's just the current cultural mindset). Because of this, schools have no incentives to control costs. The students will go regardless because they have access to money that will pay for the tuition, no matter how much it costs. There's no penalty for the universities to raise costs because they will get students anyways.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#175
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot the most important part. The people agreeing to these debts, by definition , do not have an education in complex debt instruments that cannot be discharged. Taking our a vast loan to study English literature might seem unwise, but it’s something I could definitely see a starry eyed 17 year old deciding to do.

I took out around $20k in loans to study literature starting in 2001. Graduated in 2005. Rent was $150 a month. Played a lot of poker and disc golf. Studied and learned a bit. Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition. Had a $300/semester book stipend as part of that and just bought penny books off Amazon (one of the benefits of an English degree) and pocketed the difference. Basically for 5-8% or so of my (estimate…

> Had a 75% scholarship to help with tuition.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#176

> Make student loans dischargeable in bankruptcy again. I would like to see the author back this up with more considerations. Bankruptcy disappears from all credit reports after seven years. The average age of first time home buyers is 35. So if a new grad’s credit is trashed from the age of 23-30, it makes no difference to them - they are not planning on using credit for anything substantial anyways. What is going t…

I feel like allowing bankruptcy in certain situations would make sense.

For example, I took out undergraduate and graduate loans to train for a career that, due to a freak health event (I got MS) in my last semester of grad school, I couldn't actually do. Currently, the disability discharge works in a way where if you can do any work at all you're on the hook for the full amount.

So someone who went to school to become an actuary/doctor/lawyer/etc, suffered a severe head injury and afterwards can only work a retail or fast food job is still on the hook for all their loans and has to pay them off on poverty wages.

Another case is people for whom the economic landscape changed so drastically so quickly that the decisions they made when entering school might not be relevant when they leave school. Think people who started undergrad in 2005/2006/2007 - they might have made perfectly reasonable decisions about what college to go to and how much debt to take out based on expected future return, and then that return tanked while they were in school + there were several years of scraping by during which interest accumulated due to no fault of their own.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#177
post #41
post #6

We should be way more willing to straight up kill multi-billion dollar industries. Without that willingness, most modern problems are impossible for governments to solve, and such industries and even their potential competitors are incentivised mostly to exacerbate the problem. I love a good market as much as anyone but there really are problems markets will never solve

But…the whole point is that it is NOT a market. If student debt is dischargeable and the government guarantee is removed or dramatically reduced, pretty much all problems are “solved”. Universities will have to start focusing on ROI. Universities that provide a poor ROI will shut down. Universities will need to reduce costs for traditional coursework, cut courses with poor returns, add courses with higher returns. Th…

Yes, but this is also the preferred solution of the people who caused the current crisis with university cost inflation.

Universities used to be expensive schools for rich people's failsons to "find themselves". That's why there's a lot of focus on "well-rounded" educations even today. Then western governments started offering taxpayer-funded tuition, which resulted in a new wave of educated kids who refused to believe government narratives regarding wars and refused to comply with conscription and drafts. This came to a head during the Vietnam War, where the US found that it's usual ability to start wars against labor in other countries had been stymied by them educating the enemy (their own workers).

While the draft has been relegated to a vestigial function in the US today, the people in power were able to shut the people down. Saudi Arabia, a theocratic dictatorship that belongs in the 10th century, not the 20th, did the American ruling class a solid by embargoing the US and shutting down our economy for a decade. This gave cover for the complete overturning of Progressive Era policies. Most importantly for this subject, public state universities were stripped of their government funding. Instead, they would charge ever-increasing tuition which students would pay for with loans. This ensured that the poor could not access education and that the educated middle class would be in permanent debt slavery.

Public universities went along with this because they were promised more money than they could get from public funding. This is why you see massive amounts of money being wasted by universities on bullshit. The ruling class gave universities a seat at the table of lavish excess in exchange for, y'know, letting the cops shoot their students with rubber bullets any time they get antsy. Your student debt is a bribe from the military-industrial complex to the university system that you pay for.

However, this gambit did not fully succeed. For one, students are still protesting, despite the debt noose around their necks, and university officials' best efforts to rubber-bullet their students into compliance. So there's a lot of politicians who want to get rid of university education altogether and replace it with trade schools. I may have harshed the concept of a "well-rounded" education before, but it does mean universities still have to teach things like history and economics, which is the sort of thing that makes the lower classes resist their social programming.

So a lot of people in power want to get rid of universities and replace them with trade schools. Now, I actually don't have a problem with trade schools; a lot of good paying jobs are going undone because they don't confer the kinds of status middle-class families want. But there's a lot of right-wingers who want kids in trade schools solely because trade schools generally do not teach all the problematic subjects and forbidden knowledge (aka "traditional coursework") that makes tools of society start asking questions.

If you want an actual way to fix universities (without just turning them into trade schools):

- Have a ONE TIME student debt forgiveness event, contingent on shutting down the student loan system, so this shit doesn't happen twice.

- Restore public university funding sufficient to allow tuition-free education for all poor and middle class students.

- Purge the university administrative class, they've grown overbloated and turned universities into their own personal hedge funds.

Once this is done, then we can start talking about what classes and degrees actually have good ROI on the public money the universities will be getting again. The thing is, though, the existing "low ROI" degrees mainly existed so the university administrative class could pump up admissions numbers. Remember, that was part of the deal they made with the devil. Taking away the student loan system means there's less incentive to admit students to prop up numbers, but if that becomes an issue again, we can further require minimum standards for students or courses through the university funding mechanism.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#178

1) Move most good careers that do not require a college degree out of the country for the benefit of shareholders 2) Tell everyone born between 1980 and 1995 that they'll be unable to compete in the global marketplace if they don't get at least some post-high school education, and imply that the mere presence of a degree will help instead of having a specific type of degree 3) Have next-to-zero standards for public f…

You forgot:

5) Systematically under-build housing so that future generations will be unable to simultaneously repay these loans and afford a place to live.

Re: How America's universities became debt factories

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question utility of that reduction. When you reduce complex situations to simple words like 'socialism' you lose nuance and predictive power. It's not binary. It's more or less. Canada is more socialist than USA. Norway is more socialist than Canada. Reducing to "is" or "isn't" doesn't help understand the problem or come up with viable solutions.

If we go along the route of "asking the government to ban every line of business where people waste money getting no value for it or even getting harmed, being driven by systematic delusion", as it is with the higher education - we will shoot ourselves in the foot in a massive massive way as this will kill almost all web startups as this is what they are - use manipulative tactics, knowingly false expectation and soc…

No, with high student loans, you are not supporting high talents; you are supporting the rich only. You are obstructing a lot of potential that poor students might have realized if they could have afforded it. It's not about banning universities; it's about broadening accessibility. Schools are state-funded for the same reason.
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