Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 86 posts

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#41

Post by fragmede »

landedfolk wrote: post #40
ddingus wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The rationale is that while you may own the land, you don't own the artifacts[...] At first I bristled a little, but given a pause to think it through, it makes great sense! Fact is, we as a species did not advance quickly enough to record our origins and a lot of our history. Perhaps this kind of thing always happens. Nobody knows and we have a sample size of one at present. Our history is a shared thing by our ver…

"Owning" the land is more of a license from a government. It is a taxi medallion you trade with other people for money. Lots of stuff you cant do on your own land without permission.

Not to mention, you likely don't own the water or mining rights to the land you own, nor does your ownership extend significantly up, either.

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#42

Post by TheRealPomax »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #4

> It is against the law in Ireland to search for archaeological objects using a metal detector unless written permission has been given. Penalties can be up to three months in prison or a fine of up to €63,486 (£53,435). Written permission from who? He was on his own farmland. You have to write a plea to the government to request permission to use a metal detector on your own land? And, if that's the case, are such r…

There is no "his own farmland". All land in Ireland is owned by Ireland. You don't magically become a sovereign of your own plot just because you have a title deed, Ireland still ultimately owns that land. You're just granted most of the rights relating to use of that land. But not all rights. And archeological finds fall in the "not all rights" category.

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#43

Post by ruiseal »

esperent wrote: post #34
profsummergig wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much will never be found thanks to this law.

So much will never be looted or destroyed because of this law. As an Irish person who has spent some time working as an archaeological grunt (basically, I dig then as soon as I spot something, pass it over to a real archaeologist) - this is a hugely important law. Because, for large developers, the immediate response on finding something is to hide/destroy it so that they don't lose money while an archaeological surv…

In response to "our country's heritage": Ireland is not a person so the concept is entirely political.

And provided you don't cause any negative externalities, you should have the default right to do whatever you want on your land.

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#44

Post by otherme123 »

fragmede wrote: post #41
landedfolk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Owning" the land is more of a license from a government. It is a taxi medallion you trade with other people for money. Lots of stuff you cant do on your own land without permission.

Not to mention, you likely don't own the water or mining rights to the land you own, nor does your ownership extend significantly up, either.

In Spain we have a mining law that goes as follows: I have a plot of land, but I need a permission to mine it. But if mining company X suspects my plot can be mined, they can get permission to mine my plot before I do. They can't mine it if I don't let them, but if anyone is going to mine is the company.

IIRC, a few years ago some company called Odyssey that go around trying to unearth gold from antiquity, was reminded by the government that in Spain you can't do that, and every single gram of gold you find is property of the State. https://www.elmundo.es/cultura/2021/10/19/616e897de4d4d8e73f...

Unfortunately, our justice is painfully slow and ineficient, and Odissey got 500 millions in gold from a shipwreck due to a legal failure.

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#45

Post by dyauspitr »

stevenwoo wrote: post #32
gadders wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>These laws are a balancing act between heritage conservation and civil rights like allowing people to enjoy metal detecting as a hobby. Without these laws and effective enforcement of them, looters show up with bulldozers, metal detectors, and work crews in the middle of the night to dig up anything they can sell to what's now a billion dollar global market. I've spent a lot of time as an archaeologist looking at t…

The sitcom The Detectorists goes into this hobby in the UK in a lot of detail and has several plots about reporting responsibilities.

What a fantastic show. The entire thing was so cozy.

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#46

Post by krisoft »

ruiseal wrote: post #43
esperent wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much will never be looted or destroyed because of this law. As an Irish person who has spent some time working as an archaeological grunt (basically, I dig then as soon as I spot something, pass it over to a real archaeologist) - this is a hugely important law. Because, for large developers, the immediate response on finding something is to hide/destroy it so that they don't lose money while an archaeological surv…

In response to "our country's heritage": Ireland is not a person so the concept is entirely political. And provided you don't cause any negative externalities, you should have the default right to do whatever you want on your land.

> Ireland is not a person so the concept is entirely political.

Of course. Is that some kind of gotcha?

> provided you don't cause any negative externalities, you should have the default right to do whatever you want on your land.

Destroying our chances to understand history is the externality.

But here is the thing, if you are an Irish citizen you are free to advocate for a change in law. If you convince enough of your peers that it should be changed it will be changed. Isn’t that great?

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#47

Post by antonvs »

A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #4

> It is against the law in Ireland to search for archaeological objects using a metal detector unless written permission has been given. Penalties can be up to three months in prison or a fine of up to €63,486 (£53,435). Written permission from who? He was on his own farmland. You have to write a plea to the government to request permission to use a metal detector on your own land? And, if that's the case, are such r…

> your own land

Your assumptions about what this means are parochial. Think a bit deeper about what ownership really means in this context.

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#48

Post by krisoft »

Loughla wrote: post #23
darby_nine wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Idk about this specific thing, but this is much simpler than it sounds if it operates like other anthropology. Ritualistic means intentional, and supernatural means symbolically meaningful. In other words, this is less of a specific claim and more of an "idk but they were clearly up to something ".

The problem is how it's written, I think. I now understand what you're saying, but the way it's phrased in the article makes it seem like they need to know where it came from for ritualistic and supernatural reasons. Like there are rituals the anthropologists have to perform, not that they might have ritualistic use in the past. It's a weirdly written sentence. Or maybe I've just been awake for too long.

You are not wrong. The Guardian made an absolute hash of it. I recommend that you read the original document which says this: “However, to fully understand and appreciate these artifacts, it's crucial to know the exact location where they were found. The context of such discoveries helps archaeologists piece together ancient settlement patterns and cultural practices. For instance, hoards or collections of objects were often deliberately placed in specific locations for reasons that could range from ritualistic to supernatural.”

Here is the link: https://www.museum.ie/en-IE/News/Appeal-for-information-abou...

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#49

Post by fph »

wileydragonfly wrote: post #35

“We’d rather it rotted away to dust versus you digging it up.” Good grief.

I think the point is "We'd rather you left them where they were after you found them and notified a museum, so that they could be dug out with all due care by professional archeologists".

Re: Irish museum solves mystery of Bronze Age axe heads delivered in porridge box

#50

Post by tsimionescu »

profsummergig wrote: post #12
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #4

> It is against the law in Ireland to search for archaeological objects using a metal detector unless written permission has been given. Penalties can be up to three months in prison or a fine of up to €63,486 (£53,435). Written permission from who? He was on his own farmland. You have to write a plea to the government to request permission to use a metal detector on your own land? And, if that's the case, are such r…

So much will never be found thanks to this law.

Generally, the later we excavate something, the greater the amount of historical information we'll be able to get from that excavation.

Of course, this has to be balanced with some amount of excavation to actually improve those methods, and with enough information being gleaned today to keep us interested in actually funding the practice of archaeology for tomorrow.

Post reply on HN