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"Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

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Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#51

Post by itishappy »

lbwtaylor wrote: post #45
engineer_22 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quiet so. The article suggest the police and government offered no reassurances to the hostages, gambled with their lives, and to top it all off tear gassed them. I'd be less-than-thrilled, too.

But the hostage takers are the ones who created the hostage situation, not the police. They are the ones that caused the risk to the lives of the hostages - in fact that it the whole purpose of hostage taking, to use human lives as bargaining chips. I understand it is rational to want the police to cooperate with hostage takers if you are a hostage. But if the police successfully orchestrate a rescue, how is it ratio…

Don't equate criticism for police with a preference for hostage takers. In my view that's exactly the point of the article.

The police told her to prepare to die at her post. She criticized that response. "You developed the hots for your captors!" was the response to her criticism.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#52

Post by mewpmewp2 »

octopoc wrote: post #48
lbwtaylor wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can desire the police cooperate with the hostage takers, without taking the side of the hostage takers. The proof is in the pudding - the police ended the hostage taking with no lives lost. To after the fact continue to take the side of the hostage takers is pretty terrible to me. All of this is Olsson's fault.

What constitutes "taking the hostage takers' side"? She's not begging that the police release the perps, she's not saying that they were within their rights to rob the bank or anything like that. It's more complicated than just "she is taking the police's side" vs "she is taking the perps' side".

But the fact that she's talking fondly of the hostage takers is exactly the evidence of phenomena of the stockholm syndrome.

Could police have done things better? For sure. Were they inexperienced with the hostage situation? Yeah.

But to speak negatively of the people trying to diffuse the situation and positively of the hostage takers is what is definition of the stockholm syndrome, because clearly none of it would've happened if it wasn't for the hostage takers.

The fact that she's not actively condemning the criminals and hostage takers speaks volumes to me.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#53

Post by mewpmewp2 »

engineer_22 wrote: post #42
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how can a rational person believe the police is at fault compared to captors like it's a normal thing to take hostages?

Humans aren't rational, they're made of flesh and blood.

And for those irrational cases we have labels and descriptions such as stockholm syndrome, or social anxiety disorder and whatnot.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#54

Post by mewpmewp2 »

potato3983 wrote: post #44
mewpmewp2 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how can a rational person believe the police is at fault compared to captors like it's a normal thing to take hostages?

In the moment it's not a question of fault or good vs bad. It's a question of who do you cast your lot in with in order to have a better chance of exiting the situation alive. Stuff like helping law enforcement or getting back at the bad guys only matters so long as it isn't likely to get you dead. You're valuable to the hostage takers so long as you're alive. Your continued existence is a nuisance to the police. But…

These are all good explanations for the phenomena, and if you are being taken hostage, it is even rational to empathize with whoever took you hostage to maximize chances of your survival. I think the syndrome part is when you are out of that situation, but still continue to be kind to the hostage takers, and/or keep yourself intentionally in the dangerous situation to be with the hostage taker.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#55

Post by mewpmewp2 »

pasabagi wrote: post #49
lbwtaylor wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the hostage takers are the ones who created the hostage situation, not the police. They are the ones that caused the risk to the lives of the hostages - in fact that it the whole purpose of hostage taking, to use human lives as bargaining chips. I understand it is rational to want the police to cooperate with hostage takers if you are a hostage. But if the police successfully orchestrate a rescue, how is it ratio…

The expectations for hostage-takers are pretty low, whereas the expectations for police are, if not sky-high, at least that they won't kill or injure you. Disappointment is often proportionate to anger. There's a second point which is, from a political perspective, police behaviour can be easily changed. Desperate criminal behaviour cannot.

These are all valid explanations or potentiators for what can cause the phenomena or syndrome, but it doesn't mean that the behavior is accurate to the truth.

She chose to spoke in a way that condemned the police who tried to help you and she chose to spoke kindly to the hostage takers - you can frame everything in anyway you want.

But reality is that police tried to do good for society while hostage takers were actively putting her in risk and trying to take from the society.

To be empathetic to the police, they were also under tremendous stress, and had never seen a situation like that, Sweden had never seen this, and like the article said they hadn't trained for that. They tried to make the best of the bad situation they could, and after managing to have everyone lives intact, they were still condemned by someone who they tried to save, and that someone was speaking kindly of the people who caused the situation in the first place.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#56

Post by jjk166 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #37
jjk166 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sensing that their likelihood of survival was getting slimmer by the hour, Enmark took matters into her own hands. She called the Swedish prime minister, Olof Palme, and begged him to let her and another hostage leave the bank with their captors. ‘I fully trust Clark and the robber,’ she told Palme. ‘I am not desperate. They haven’t done athing to us. On the contrary, they have been very nice. But you know, Olof, w…

But how can a rational person believe the police is at fault compared to captors like it's a normal thing to take hostages?

How can a rational person not? The police had the opportunity to deescalate, which would increase their chances of survival, and they chose not to. It would be like if a mugger stabbed you, and the ER surgeon refused to operate on you to save you - you can and should fault both.

If I were ever in that situation, I would 100% fault the police for their behavior, and I would question the sanity of anyone who didn't.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#57

Post by jjk166 »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #36
jjk166 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they sided with their captors against the authorities. Because the authorities told them point blank they would rather the hostages die than the captors walk free. That's not some unique phenomenon, that's what any rational person would do. In the last paragraph, the article states a 2008 review basically found that stockholm syndrome is pop science, not a well defined and experimentally verified phenomenon. While…

But how come she ignored the fact that the root cause of all of that was the captors? I think that's the crazy part.

The same way when someone T-bones your car you ignore the traffic engineer who designed a bad intersection.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#58

Post by jjk166 »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #39
jjk166 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any examples where the victims side with the perpetrator and after exhaustive search there isn't any rational explanation for them doing so? Assuming there is some condition that causes people to display a particular irrational behavior is typically god-of-the-gaps thinking - that you don't understand their motivations does not mean they don't have them.

I don't agree with the premise that coming up with an explanation for Stockholm Syndrome means it's not real. "People in captivity may develop emotional bonds with the violent criminals threatening to kill them" is an important fact for police and hostage negotiators to know, even if every single facet of that behavior is rational. I would also, though, strongly question the idea that it was rational in the original…

I'm not talking about an explanation for stockholm syndrome, I'm talking about an explanation for why they would side with their captors besides stockholm syndrome.

There is no evidence this phenomenon exists, nonetheless that it is beneficial for police or hostage negotiators to know about it.

And in the original case the victim did not "fully trust" the captors, she merely feared them less than the police, which given their comments is undoubtedly rational.

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#59

Post by pfannkuchen »

throw4847285 wrote: post #9

It's the kind of idea that is captivating from a literary perspective but doesn't actually make any sense if you think about it, which is why it has showed up in so many movies, tv shows, novels, etc. My favorite subversion is in Die Hard where the person on TV is explaining that the victims are likely bonding with their captors while a scene plays of Gruber and his gang terrorizing people who are huddled in fear.

It makes complete sense!

If you are in a hunter gatherer tribe 70,000 years ago and you get conquered by a neighboring tribe, as a female what is the genetically adaptive behavior? Fight the conquerer and also be killed? Or…?

Re: "Stockholm Syndrome" was invented by police to discredit a female hostage (2020)

#60

Post by gqcwwjtg »

mewpmewp2 wrote: post #52
octopoc wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What constitutes "taking the hostage takers' side"? She's not begging that the police release the perps, she's not saying that they were within their rights to rob the bank or anything like that. It's more complicated than just "she is taking the police's side" vs "she is taking the perps' side".

But the fact that she's talking fondly of the hostage takers is exactly the evidence of phenomena of the stockholm syndrome. Could police have done things better? For sure. Were they inexperienced with the hostage situation? Yeah. But to speak negatively of the people trying to diffuse the situation and positively of the hostage takers is what is definition of the stockholm syndrome, because clearly none of it would'…

Maybe chill out on criticizing the reaction of someone involved in such a traumatic scenario where they’re not treated well by any side. It’s not what the article is about and it’s pretty gross.
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