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Boeing workers vote to strike

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#51

Post by lnsru »

sofixa wrote: post #43
beaglesss wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure it's failed from the floor workers because they forgot the plug door needs bolted. It's failed other ways due to the other (SPEEA) union botching the MCAS. Sometimes it's easy to lose track of how basically all the Washington unions are so broken in their homicidal negligence while begging for more money to fail miserably.

The MCAS failure was a multilayered one. The engineers who designed it, software engineers who developed it, QA, testing, pilots, managers who approved, managers who instilled that work culture, etc etc are all responsible and should all have been fired and sentenced to prison for their negligence and dereliction of duty.

This thing with duty feeling is hard. They all feel they did their best. Exactly as my precursor who spend 17 years in the role and did way below bare minimum. No single comment in the code. Last project does not work at all, but was approved as finished. Laziness and ignorance are everywhere. As long as managers accept it there is no way to stop that. Maybe I should stop drawing flowcharts in ascii art manner. Nobody will say “thank you” for that anyway. Nobody will give me a raise for that. It might help the next guy in my chair, but should I care about him?

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#52

Post by nirvdrum »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #20

[flagged]

If the supply of labor is so high then Boeing can hire scabs. I don’t follow how on the one hand the workers add so little value and are so replaceable that they deserve no raise and then on the other hand their strike could kill the company.

I also don’t follow how paying union dues is a problem if they’re going to get you a 25 - 40% raise whereas you’re unlikely to get anything on your own. I get not everyone likes unions, but you’re making a pretty compelling case for them IMHO.

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#53

Post by beaglesss »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47
beaglesss wrote: post #6

[flagged]

> Glad to see these guys out the job and production moving to the Carolinas Here's an idea: let them compete. Seattle versus North Charleston. I quite literally don't know if I agree with your or not, but that's the point--none of you, I or a dickwad in Chicago or D.C. should be making that call unilaterally. The market should. Split them up and return us to the competition that built America's golden age of aviation…

You'll have to break up the FAA first. The certification costs are ungodly, rigid, and the certification process created fascistic interweaving of industry with government.

To break the monopoly, counterintuitively, we have to deregulate Boeing.

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#54

Post by night862 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #45
darby_nine wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know boeing won't be "wrecked"; they're too critical for state interests to be allowed to fail. If they're smart they'll either nationalize the company to remove the profit inefficiency or force the company to split to remove the profit inefficiency. Either way, the profit motive and lack of any competition is clearly a national security risk.

> We all know boeing won't be "wrecked"; they're too critical for state interests to be allowed to fail People keep repeating this without context. The auto companies are strategically significant. That didn't prevent them from going bankrupt [1][2]. Wiping shareholders doesn't mean blowing up the factories. I'm increasingly convinced Boeing needs to go bankrupt. It can then shed unprofitable units--through spin-offs…

Maybe so, but I would say cars are different than aerospace.

It’s clear that Boeing was able to squeeze costs centers at the expense of quality and business investment all while keeping the coin under shell in the form of regular old stock buybacks.

But if/when Boeing goes under who is going to vet all this NDI sitting in their portfolios? They’re just gonna spin it off to another buyer—consisting of who exactly? McDonnel Douglas? Elon Musk? Tencent?

Seems like a nightmare for someone, not sure for whom.

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#55

Post by anon7725 »

ikawe wrote: post #9
calcifer wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe the union demands are reasonable, or maybe they're not. Give me specifics please! Would that really help, though? Do you have the industry know-how, expertise, and internal knowledge to assess whether the offer is reasonable or not?

I’m not an expert, but I’d like to know more. To me it’s interesting to know what the workers are concerned about specifically. Otherwise it just reads like “lots of people are mad”. Well about what exactly? It’s fine for a headline, but not very impressive reporting.

This union last initiated a strike in 2008 just as the financial crisis hit. They were in a weak position and didn’t get a good deal.

In 2009 Boeing decided to build the 787 in a non-union factory in SC instead of in Washington.

A few years later (can’t recall exactly - it was around 10 years ago), Boeing cut the pensions for new workers. The union was not in a strike position at the time.

In the last 5 years the company has pushed forward with the 737 Max program with all of its problems that you’ve likely heard of.

There was a leadership crisis and a new CEO is starting. They’ve made a big show about recommitting to Washington.

The contract that was voted on this week included a headline raise of 25% over 4 years, but buried in the details was the elimination of a 4% annual bonus.

Sounds like there is a generation’s worth of grievance to sort out, and this being a fraught moment for the company, the union has decided to press their advantage. More power to them. This could have been avoided if the company leadership had a long-term approach to management and employee relations.

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#56

Post by JumpCrisscross »

beaglesss wrote: post #53
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Glad to see these guys out the job and production moving to the Carolinas Here's an idea: let them compete. Seattle versus North Charleston. I quite literally don't know if I agree with your or not, but that's the point--none of you, I or a dickwad in Chicago or D.C. should be making that call unilaterally. The market should. Split them up and return us to the competition that built America's golden age of aviation…

You'll have to break up the FAA first. The certification costs are ungodly, rigid, and the certification process created fascistic interweaving of industry with government. To break the monopoly, counterintuitively, we have to deregulate Boeing.

> You'll have to break up the FAA first. The certification costs are ungodly, rigid, and the certification process created fascistic interweaving of industry with government

Why do you need to break up the FAA to simplify certification?

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#57

Post by JumpCrisscross »

night862 wrote: post #54
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We all know boeing won't be "wrecked"; they're too critical for state interests to be allowed to fail People keep repeating this without context. The auto companies are strategically significant. That didn't prevent them from going bankrupt [1][2]. Wiping shareholders doesn't mean blowing up the factories. I'm increasingly convinced Boeing needs to go bankrupt. It can then shed unprofitable units--through spin-offs…

Maybe so, but I would say cars are different than aerospace. It’s clear that Boeing was able to squeeze costs centers at the expense of quality and business investment all while keeping the coin under shell in the form of regular old stock buybacks. But if/when Boeing goes under who is going to vet all this NDI sitting in their portfolios? They’re just gonna spin it off to another buyer—consisting of who exactly? McD…

> But if/when Boeing goes under who is going to vet all this NDI sitting in their portfolios? They’re just gonna spin it off to another buyer—consisting of who exactly? McDonnel Douglas? Elon Musk?

Idk, pick one that's American or closely allied [1]. Ideally not one of the three larger than Boeing.

Worst case: audit and re-assign the contracts. We'll be better for it in the long run. And I'm not convinced it wouldn't result in quicker, higher-quality deliverables in the short.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defense_contractors

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#58

Post by OxO4 »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #32
NotACop182 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe had the company not prioritized greed and instead invested in itself they wouldn’t be in this mess. Don’t blame the workers for this and a company that depends so heavily on the government to keep it afloat shouldn’t be allowed to buyback stocks. Unions in a good place because Boeing isn’t going anywhere. Mismanagement allowed the greedy management to cash out already why not the workers.

I see this repeated often - blame placed entirely on management and not the workers. Why do you believe that? Do you honestly believe that they have not contributed at least partially to the decline of Boeing? That union protectionism has not affected productivity? That hostile bargaining and strikes hadn’t hurt their finances? Accusing the company of prioritizing greed and blaming the boogeyman of management sounds…

Often, people try justify high pay for management positions by pointing out the responsibilities that comes with such a position. If that's the case, then it only makes sense to place blame on management when things go sideways. If not, then what exactly is the value that management adds to the company that justifies their high pay?

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#59

Post by beaglesss »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #56
beaglesss wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll have to break up the FAA first. The certification costs are ungodly, rigid, and the certification process created fascistic interweaving of industry with government. To break the monopoly, counterintuitively, we have to deregulate Boeing.

> You'll have to break up the FAA first. The certification costs are ungodly, rigid, and the certification process created fascistic interweaving of industry with government Why do you need to break up the FAA to simplify certification?

The golden age of flight had not only competition of manufacture, but competition from consumers and purchasers on risk appetite. It could not emerge under an FAA as we know it. To come anywhere near that you'd need to break up the FAA, as it has a virtual monopoly on violence in enforcing the CFRs here. Let people pick which, if any enforcer they want certifying their airplanes.

That is, the FAA suffers from the same lack of competition as Boeing.

Re: Boeing workers vote to strike

#60

Post by ncallaway »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #33
hungie wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor involved is highly skilled, and has seen extensive underpayment. When Boeing tried to ship manufacturing away from union shops, the quality and reliability of the planes plummeted, driving up costs for the company. As a frequent flier, I'd much rather be in a union plane than a "cheapest labor we could find" plane.

[flagged]

Yeah I’m sure that was the union’s fault, and not pressure from management to work quickly, cut corners, and akip on quality.

Honestly, anyone blaming unions for Boeings quality problems are not someone that anyone should listen to or take seriously when it comes to quality.

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