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Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

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Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#131

Post by waterlesscloud »

jasonlotito wrote: post #28
wandernotlost wrote: post #6

All the mentioned companies form at least part of their business on data collected from their users. Not products or sevices formed of raw material. Even Netflix depends on its users' data heavily in order to run its recommendation system. So to expect that they allow the public, in the form of other companies providing other services based on said data, is not so unreasonable at all. As a provider of data from which…

You make the mistake of assuming that you gave them your data and got nothing in return. You did. What you're upset about is that you've already given them your data, and now you want more for it. You've upped your price after handing over the product, and them having delivered the product.

What about the posts I put on Craigslist in the future? The ratings I give to Netflix?

Am I somehow mystically bound to never ask for more in return for the data I provide them?

Of course we can ask to change the terms. It's a business transaction.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#132

Post by angryasian »

waterlesscloud wrote: post #127
angryasian wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

both parties would be craigslist and its users in this case. Which craigslist does allow users to post their information where ever they want.

The users are also within their rights to request that Craigslist share that information with third parties via an api, or by scraping for that matter. The point is that Craigslist is not the only side in the transaction and should not be presumed to be able to set the terms on their own.

when you submit your information to craigslist you agree to their tos. If you don't accept you don't have to submit your information to them. Once the information is in their database theres now two sets of data. Yours that exists on your hdd or your head and craigslist copy of the data that you submitted to them. You are free to do what you want with your copy of the data, submit it to other sites, allow other people to somehow scrape it... but craigslist copy of your data, they can now do what they want with it.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#133

Post by dredmorbius »

heliodor wrote: post #34
citricsquid wrote: post #2

I think the reason people here feel this way is because the general consensus among HN users is that the best product wins and that's all that matters. If a company has a monopoly on data and refuses to provide an API they're saying that they don't want to compete on the quality of their product (craigslist for example) they want to keep their position without the benefits to the users. Padmapper made craigslist apar…

Actually, Craigslist values us, the users, more than most companies. You know how? By leaving so much money on the table that you can't help but love them! Craigslist is a breath of fresh air in a world where everything is optimized as much as possible to part us from our money!

Craigslist aren't doing this strictly out of the kindness of their hearts.

By charging for only a small number of listing, CL accomplish two things:

1. They create a large marketplace, which by virtue of its size provides more value than if it were a smaller, more diversified set of markets.

2. It "sucks the oxygen out of the room" for any competitor attempting to create a similar service. There are a few other commerce-related online sites -- eBay, Amazon, iTunes store, etc., and even a few competing specialized listings services (jobs, apartments, etc.) -- but none that specifically serve the general classifieds market.

I do suspect that there's a genuine component to CL's community service mission. But that doesn't mean the self-serving aspects of its behavior are any less valid.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#134

Post by res0nat0r »

jacoblyles wrote: post #124
bigiain wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty easy to assert that Craigslist is somehow disrespecting their users - perhaps by having poor UI - but it's harder to prove that assertion by setting up a competing service with your idea of a "better UI" for the users. It seems abundantly clear to me that the assertion that "A competitor to Craigslist who got $x right would easily get all Craigslist's users", for any of the usually mentioned values of $x…

Do you understand the concept of "monopoly power"? It sounds like you do not. I, personally, save several hours every time I look for an apartment by using padmapper over Craigslist. Aggregated, that's human lifetimes of time saved every year by padmapper. UI isn't about round corners and fancy color schemes. It's about using computers to automate repetitive behaviors. Newmark's defenders tell me what I really want i…

> I, personally, save several hours every time I look for an apartment by using padmapper over Craigslist.

> Fuck Craigslist. Seriously.

It's a bit disingenuous to say fuck Craigslist when the data you are using above...comes from Craigslist. Shouldn't you have switched to Zillow or another service by now if you hate Craigslist so much?

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#135

Post by joe_the_user »

Wait! Wait a gosh-darn second here!

Craiglist is available by RSS and would not be too hard to scrape. You want "API access", you got it. Unlike Facebook, I haven't heard of anyone tossed off Craigslist for using a script to access the data Craigslist is happy to give out for free.

Ah, but you don't want "API access", you want a license to resell the data - and for free! You want different terms of use. Etc. Wah, wah, wah.

Guess what? That's different. Obviously.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#136

Post by mathattack »

There's no obligation for any company to create an ecosystem about themselves. It's also not a universal strategy that always maximizes value. 3rd parties can walk with their feet when they don't like it. If companies are unreasonable, they get punished in the market. Why is this so controversial?

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#137

Post by korimako »

All these companies were built on an infrastructure which tax payer's money funded the development of before it promised to make a profit. More taxpayer money was put into the development of the internet than the Manhattan project. Private companies are reaping the benefit - in my opinion they owe it us to keep the system open, and API's are just a token gesture in that direction.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#138

Post by saumil07 »

m0th87 wrote: post #128

And nobody owes Craigslist, LinkedIn, or Netflix anything either. They can act as shitty as they want, but nobody should be surprised when it gives them bad press.

Most succinct and best comment - the original post is a tempest in a teapot. Craigslist is free to optimize their lock-in on their marketplace and web-savvy users are free to bitch about the effects thereof (I did on Twitter twice over), most likely to little effect in the short to medium term. Maybe enough complaints and CL will get its act together. Maybe it won't. But that's fine! Let's continue speaking out against CL's uncool behavior and hope for the best.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#139

Post by sopooneo »

jarcoal wrote: post #46
heliodor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Craigslist values us, the users, more than most companies. You know how? By leaving so much money on the table that you can't help but love them! Craigslist is a breath of fresh air in a world where everything is optimized as much as possible to part us from our money!

If CL decided to take that money on the table, they might have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way and went out of business years ago. Maybe they realized the path to greatest profitability was to act like they don't care about profits. Just a thought.

That is possible. But I get the feeling they naively stumbled into that outcome by genuinely trying to be decent.

Re: Craigslist, LinkedIn, Netflix, and others don't owe us anything.

#140

Post by LVB »

From Lessig's "The Future of Ideas" concerning the lawsuit against Bidder's Edge for scraping eBay data:

Both sides had a point, and while my bias is with [Bidder's Edge], I don’t mean to deny the plausibility of a different regime. What I do deny, however, is that the answer to this question is obvious.

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