Where has all the money in the world gone? • Hacker News Board

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#61

Post by cstross » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 11:42 AM UTC

bokonist wrote: post #2

The fundamental problem is that the monetary systems of the modern world are all designed on the Wile E. Coyote principle. As long as you never look down, the system works. In the U.S. there is ~$14 trillion in government debt. There exists tens of trillion more in private debt. But only $2 trillion exists in bonafide, actual, real honest-to-goodness dollars (I'm including in that count accounts at the federal reserv…

So that's why Europe is stuck. It adopted a monetary system that works when the government controls the currency, and adopted it in a situation where governments cannot print money.

Minor nit: I believe they adopted the current monetary system in anticipation of future political union. Which was not unreasonable, extrapolating from the Franco-German steel and coal pact forward to the subsequent treaty system that created the EU -- but it got stalled when they diverted into expansion (from 12-17 states to 25+) instead of consolidation in the late 90s/early 00s.

And they'd still have been okay, in the short term, if the entire global economy hadn't caught a head-cold in 2007/08.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#62

Post by opminion » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 11:47 AM UTC

The answer by Redditor otherwiseyep is really, really good as a quick public forum answer.

Definitely worth reading for those of us five-year-old-equivalents in terms of knowledge of macroeconomics.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#63

Post by tempuser008 » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 11:49 AM UTC

tempuser008 wrote: post #58

gaius wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you make movie A, the next million copies of movie A are essentially free. So we divide the cost of A by the number of units we expect to sell, rather than charging the full price of it to the first viewer, and giving it away to the others. Crucially, and this is where the whole utopian post-scarcity dream falls apart, the cost of making movie B doesn't significantly depend on the cost of movie A. Because a movi…

And then we apply the same principle to a song. Once you record the first song, the next million copies of it distributed via internet is basically free. Or is it. It would be nearly free if there were no fat cats in the middle.

I don't mind paying 10 cents if that is the fair cost. I only hate the very greedy middle men.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#64

Post by SuperChihuahua » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 11:52 AM UTC

ExpiredLink wrote: post #55

bokonist wrote: post #2

The fundamental problem is that the monetary systems of the modern world are all designed on the Wile E. Coyote principle. As long as you never look down, the system works. In the U.S. there is ~$14 trillion in government debt. There exists tens of trillion more in private debt. But only $2 trillion exists in bonafide, actual, real honest-to-goodness dollars (I'm including in that count accounts at the federal reserv…

Exchange rates Euro to USD: 10 years ago: 1 EUR = 0,95 USD today: 1 EUR = 1,3 USD As European I really like the 'Euro crisis'. I'd be pleased to get more of it. PS: What media has written about the financial crises since 2008 is mostly nonsense. In fact, we have seen a deep media crisis. Media is not able any more to give a remotely adequate picture of reality (not limited to financial aspects of course).

But the problem is that we have postponed the crisis by increasing the debt

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#65

Post by sageikosa » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 11:57 AM UTC

rfugger wrote: post #11

bokonist wrote: post #2

The fundamental problem is that the monetary systems of the modern world are all designed on the Wile E. Coyote principle. As long as you never look down, the system works. In the U.S. there is ~$14 trillion in government debt. There exists tens of trillion more in private debt. But only $2 trillion exists in bonafide, actual, real honest-to-goodness dollars (I'm including in that count accounts at the federal reserv…

There's always enough money to pay off all the debt, it just may not always have enough velocity.

Best answer yet. A recirculating water fountain can stream far more water per day through its system than it holds or receives in replenishment.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#66

Post by adamt » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 12:17 PM UTC

No post body was provided.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#67

Post by hxa7241 » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 12:20 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #53

zanny wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is the catch in the 21st century - we are creating debt in exchange for things that can create goods without human intervention. The entire monetary system is built off the idea of trading goods and services that are the products of human labor. Things like automated assembly lines are a precursor - when we had 3d printing, you remove all human factors in the creation of goods besides the raw resource acquisitio…

Once you make movie A, the next million copies of movie A are essentially free. So we divide the cost of A by the number of units we expect to sell, rather than charging the full price of it to the first viewer, and giving it away to the others. Crucially, and this is where the whole utopian post-scarcity dream falls apart, the cost of making movie B doesn't significantly depend on the cost of movie A. Because a movi…

Ideally, for informational-goods, we first find out (somewhat) what people want, take payment, make the product, then release it for free use and copying.

The economic problem here is fundamentally one of information and cooperation. As far as we know what we want we should share the cost of producing it (i.e. production should be of what is known to be wanted, and cooperation should be on shared goals). And where we do not know (e.g. the future) we should not prevent unpredicted gains from what has been produced (i.e. by charging for copies).

The practical problem is how to get information and how to promote cooperation -- this is where possible arrangements can vary. But the core theoretical structure is that our production should follow from information, and our consumption should not be hostage to lack of information -- this is what all arrangements should try to achieve.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#68

Post by Tycho » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 12:26 PM UTC

Money is debt, but on a more fundamental level it's a combination of trust and confidence. Those things are necessary for doing business, and they can be destroyed.

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#69

Post by tempuser008 » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 12:28 PM UTC

ricardobeat wrote: post #13

If you have fun reading crazy whack conspiratorial blogs, this thread lead to a couple great ones: - http://www.divinecosmos.com/start-here/davids-blog/995-lawsu... - http://benjaminfulford.net/ I liked the two whackos interviewing one another: BF: They offered me at one point the job of Finance Minister of Japan. DW: Finance minister of Japan. Right. BF: They also, believe it or not, offered me General Electric and…

Wow, that's some very crazy shit right there. Too bad it takes time to check exactly what level of lunacy is involved. (Time is very expensive these days, that's why I throw away so much of it, filtering bullshit from crazy bullshit on the internets)

Re: Where has all the money in the world gone?

#70

Post by mixmax » Sat, Jun 23, 2012, 12:34 PM UTC

Atropos wrote: post #54

adventureful wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU crisis is absolutely not a US/UK media thing. Half the Eurozone is melting down, and requires trillions in bailouts from 'printed' Euros to bail them out. It's from decades of unpaid-for lifestyle choices, accumulated debt from Socialism (same thing America is choking on, we just spent more of our money on things like war, but that's a welfare program too for jobs and corporations). The US is in much worse sha…

At the moment only Greece (2,65% of eurozone gdp), Portugal (1,83%) and Ireland (1,82%) have received bailouts - which makes 6,3% not "half the Eurozone melting down". Spanish banks may get a €100b bankout aswell - big deal. But I agree with you on the source of the problem - socialism or uneconomic regulation. That is visible in the doing business rankings of the world bank ( http://www.doingbusiness.org/rankings ).…

The problem isn't socialism, it's a divergence of productivity between the northern and southern regions of the euro area. When you combine this with a shared currency you're asking for trouble.

Note that the socialist nordic countries have stellar economies.

I've noticed a lot of Americans blame the euro crisis on socialism which,is interesting since it doesn't seem to hold up to scrutiny. I'd be interested in hearing why this is. Is it the media, an American distrust of socialism or something else?