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Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

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Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#61

Post by cameldrv »

daghamm wrote: post #7
peutetre wrote: post #3

> Previously, customers were offered the option to purchase “Full Self-Driving Capability,” They were offered a lie. Tesla still hasn't delivered what those customers paid for. > Let’s look at what else has changed on Tesla’s website on FSD before we dive into the wording changes. Another recent change on Tesla's website is to remove old blog posts, including a 2016 blog post in which Tesla claimed "as of today, all…

Some Teslas don't have the sensor hardware and the compute power to do road-safe FSD. This is something Tesla engineers learned the hard way. Things may change in the future as we make advances in computing and AI, but right now it is not possible.

Even with advances in AI, I don’t think the cameras are good enough. They are prone to getting blinded by the sun due to poor dynamic range, and some of them have no way to clean themselves, and aren’t redundant for certain directions.

No matter how good the AI is, the car is not going to be able to drive if the image is a big white blob of blown out sun or bird poop, and there is no redundant sensor.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#62

Post by piva00 »

bravetraveler wrote: post #37
davej wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Another recent change on Tesla's website is to remove old blog posts, including a 2016 blog post in which Tesla claimed … Perhaps unintended but this is a bit misleading. Tesla changed their blog system and didn’t migrate older posts. My initial reading of your comment was that they selectively removed some older posts which they wanted to hide.

My reading of your post is they changed systems for plausible deniability

Even more since migrating content from one CMS to another is a trivial engineering effort.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#63

Post by bravetraveler »

piva00 wrote: post #62
bravetraveler wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My reading of your post is they changed systems for plausible deniability

Even more since migrating content from one CMS to another is a trivial engineering effort.

Considering they decided it was worth upgrading, yeah. A marginal amount of time to backup, normalize, and import the data isn't a lot.

Not worth keeping the posts? No readership? Why upgrade?

Sus, as the kids say, but plausible.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#64

Post by philistine »

cameldrv wrote: post #61
daghamm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Teslas don't have the sensor hardware and the compute power to do road-safe FSD. This is something Tesla engineers learned the hard way. Things may change in the future as we make advances in computing and AI, but right now it is not possible.

Even with advances in AI, I don’t think the cameras are good enough. They are prone to getting blinded by the sun due to poor dynamic range, and some of them have no way to clean themselves, and aren’t redundant for certain directions. No matter how good the AI is, the car is not going to be able to drive if the image is a big white blob of blown out sun or bird poop, and there is no redundant sensor.

A car without radar cannot be trusted to drive itself.

I can move my eyes, put on sunglasses, lower the sun visor. That rinkydink camera is stuck looking straight at the sun. It’s a no go.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#65

Post by piva00 »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #45
Zenzero wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert, but anyone can look at the sensors placed on a Waymo compared to a Tesla and likely rightly assume Waymo doesn't have all of that extra stuff just for looks. I don't see how Tesla is even a serious contender.

While I understand your argument and agree that more sensor means easier path to self-driving, our world is now full of systems that can infer amazing amounts of data from a few sensors. This is the progress of technology. Apple Watch is probably one of the greatest examples. So many of it's features are inferred via "basic" sensors. On a different angle, sports refereeing is largely becoming possible due to advances…

> On a different angle, sports refereeing is largely becoming possible due to advances in camera based analysis. We can turn 2d images into a nearly centimeter accurate representation of a playing field in seconds.

These cameras are in a very different and much less dynamic environment than on a road speeding at 100+ km/h while getting splashed on, shat on, dusted on, muddied, stroke by bugs, snowed, etc.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#66

Post by tarsinge »

daghamm wrote: post #7
peutetre wrote: post #3

> Previously, customers were offered the option to purchase “Full Self-Driving Capability,” They were offered a lie. Tesla still hasn't delivered what those customers paid for. > Let’s look at what else has changed on Tesla’s website on FSD before we dive into the wording changes. Another recent change on Tesla's website is to remove old blog posts, including a 2016 blog post in which Tesla claimed "as of today, all…

Some Teslas don't have the sensor hardware and the compute power to do road-safe FSD. This is something Tesla engineers learned the hard way. Things may change in the future as we make advances in computing and AI, but right now it is not possible.

Not only sensors: in Europe I don’t see how driving in small towns could be possible without communicating with other drivers and pedestrians, and reading custom signs. Maybe add a robotic hand to the list of required hardware.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#67

Post by Zenzero »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #45
Zenzero wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no expert, but anyone can look at the sensors placed on a Waymo compared to a Tesla and likely rightly assume Waymo doesn't have all of that extra stuff just for looks. I don't see how Tesla is even a serious contender.

While I understand your argument and agree that more sensor means easier path to self-driving, our world is now full of systems that can infer amazing amounts of data from a few sensors. This is the progress of technology. Apple Watch is probably one of the greatest examples. So many of it's features are inferred via "basic" sensors. On a different angle, sports refereeing is largely becoming possible due to advances…

I have a hard time believing that stereoscopic image analysis will ever surpass the efficiency of lidar map analysis of 3d spaces. Given how hard self driving is, it would make sense to make the ugliest, sensor-packed vehicle a working model, and then miniaturize /prune from there.

Starting with "basic" sensors is backwards. It is like aspiring to become a chess grandmaster so good you can play with your eyes closed, and starting out as a beginner with your eyes closed.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#68

Post by SmartJerry »

torginus wrote: post #6

My guess is that they sold FSD for a lump sum while the tech was experimental. Now that they see the light at the end of the tunnel, they're planning to transition to a subscription model, and the cars that do have it will slowly fall out of circulation as they age, with many of them not having the right hardware for the real thing anyways. This is similar to what they did with supercharging.

The title here is click bait. The article actually just says they changed the way FSD is worded, it is still offered.

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#69

Post by fooker »

have_faith wrote: post #39
fooker wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hypothesis was that LIDAR was a crutch, humans manage with just vision. Whether this is correct for delivering self driving cars, we will find out soon enough. Long term though, it definitely makes sense. We just don't know what the missing pieces of the puzzle are.

Human vision has a dynamic range of roughly ~21 stops, plus other differences, do we have any cameras that come close to the human eyes "specs"?

Yes.

https://www.cined.com/canon-claims-to-have-developed-a-senso...

Re: Tesla FSD no longer offered for purchase

#70

Post by fooker »

vel0city wrote: post #48
seanhunter wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> humans manage with just vision this is commonly repeated but very obviously untrue. We don't only have vision. We have a general intelligence, coupled with vision. In the absence of AGI, the base assumption has to be the sensor apparatus needs to be significantly superior to humans for an FSD system to drive at a comparable level.

Not to mention it is also untrue because we use senses other than just vision when we drive. We use our ears for acceleration information, sometimes hearing, and the feeling of the wheel when we drive.

We don't have anything close to LIDAR though
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