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Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

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Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#111

Post by JabavuAdams »

galadriel wrote: post #106
JabavuAdams wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear power is like the instant disruption factor in the balance of power. I used to believe this, but now I think it's no longer true. It's a case of aspirant countries looking up to the nuclear powers, and drawing the wrong conclusions. Nuclear weapons are the end-product of a system and process. There's a notion that to surpass the master, you need to ask what the master sought, rather than copying what the ma…

If experience of India and Pakistan have to show anything, developing Nuclear Weapons is not a big deal, except when there are systematic attack against your infrastructure and scientists by foreign powers. Heck, I would wager that any decently educated engineers and physicist with government backing can build a nuclear bomb. The domain knowledge is not very exotic, either.

My argument is that the cost inherent in that "government backing" might be better spent on cyberwarfare.

Imagine what $100-1000 M buys you on the offensive cyberwar front vs. on the nuclear + delivery front.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#112

Post by mc32 »

omarqureshi wrote: post #101
obtu wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nowhere else in the world would a criminal become the president of a nation. You're overstating it; Berlusconi is a counterexample.

I can't believe he slipped my mind. However some bunga bunga and a bit of fraud doesn't compare to killing your brother in law.

Also, things in Russia aren't that peachy.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#113

Post by _b8r0 »

derleth wrote: post #61
_b8r0 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

> Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK OK, I'll bite: Who has been abused for dissenting in the US?

Plenty of Occupy protestors around the US have been abused[1][2]. During the civil rights movement in the 1950s the US used water cannons to disperse crowds of non-violent protestors. In the US you have 'free speech zones' far away from events that people would protest against, stopping them from protesting on public property[3]. The US will even stop people entering the country that are critical, or even make jokes about the country[4].

In the UK, 53 people were arrested[5] the day before the royal wedding last year in order to avoid dissent. The police in the UK practice a method known as kettling to force protesters into cramped spaces and deny them access to water or sanitation facilities, even using this against the young[7]. At the London G20 protests in 2009 a man with no connection to the protests was struck by a police officer[8] and later died.

My point to all of this is that to say that 'they' are savages is disingenuous. We aren't so enlightened as we lead ourselves to believe and we shouldn't expect others to meet high standards we continually breach. This isn't a political statement for me. It's an acceptance of the world we live in. If people didn't dissent, this wouldn't happen, but if people didn't dissent, then civil rights wouldn't have happened either.

[1] - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-btt1GsVx0

[2] - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/...

[3] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone

[4] - http://www.globalpost.com/dispatches/globalpost-blogs/weird-...

[5] - http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/84088/royal-wedding-53-prote...

[6] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babar_Ahmad#Police_abuse_case

[7] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling#Student_protests.2C_20...

[8] - http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2009/apr/08/g20-pol...

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#114

Post by _b8r0 »

noarchy wrote: post #58
_b8r0 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There you go with the 'muslim countries' thing again. It's not like you can lump a whole load of different countries into one basket and make sweeping generalisations. "How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do?" - Very easily. The holocaust was over 65 years ago. The perpetrators of this egregious act are mostly dead. The victims of this egregious act are mostly dead. The modern Germ…

"Would it come as some surprise to you to know that in the early 20th century Irish women would wear headscarves to protect their modesty? Oh those poor oppressed Irish women, whatever became of them?" They quit wearing them, it would seem. This puts them a century ahead.

Yes, because what you wear on your head is equivalent to 100 years of technological and cultural progress. Thank goodness no-one in the west wears hats anymore, ban them!

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#115

Post by derleth »

_b8r0 wrote: post #113
derleth wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK OK, I'll bite: Who has been abused for dissenting in the US?

Plenty of Occupy protestors around the US have been abused[1][2]. During the civil rights movement in the 1950s the US used water cannons to disperse crowds of non-violent protestors. In the US you have 'free speech zones' far away from events that people would protest against, stopping them from protesting on public property[3]. The US will even stop people entering the country that are critical, or even make jokes…

> My point to all of this is that to say that 'they' are savages is disingenuous.

So your argument rests on a massive Tu Quoque and a lot of False Equivalence.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#116

Post by _b8r0 »

derleth wrote: post #115
_b8r0 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of Occupy protestors around the US have been abused[1][2]. During the civil rights movement in the 1950s the US used water cannons to disperse crowds of non-violent protestors. In the US you have 'free speech zones' far away from events that people would protest against, stopping them from protesting on public property[3]. The US will even stop people entering the country that are critical, or even make jokes…

> My point to all of this is that to say that 'they' are savages is disingenuous. So your argument rests on a massive Tu Quoque and a lot of False Equivalence.

No, my argument was one of racism in the initial response to what was then the top comment, specifically about the term 'muslim countries' within the context of Pakistan. This is wrong as islam is a religion not a race, although as the comment was specifically in response to Pakistan is not entirely wrong, nor right. The correct argument is that the original commenter is an islamophobe who considers muslims some generic 'other' subhuman.

In response to your comment you asked me to document rights abuses in the US, which I did.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#117

Post by white_devil »

slurgfest wrote: post #86
white_devil wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In Pakistan and similar countries not all corruption is about greed, it's about an alternative system of taxation. What exactly is this "auxiliary taxation" about besides greed? It's not like the money they collect is used for the greater good.

It's not like the money which forms part of a policeman's salary is used for the greater good either. Except insofar as it compensates the policeman for doing his job, and insofar as that job is for the greater good. (Although, I don't think everyone agrees that the moral justification for everything is a unitary 'greater good'). The problem isn't the policeman taking money, the problem is that he is taking money und…

> It's not like the money which forms part of a policeman's salary is used for the greater good either.

All of the money that goes into a policeman's salary is used for the greater good. That's what having a part of our earnings confiscated buys us. What the policeman does in his official capacity is another mater.

> The problem isn't the policeman taking money, the problem is that he is taking money under the table and it is likely compromising how well and how fairly he does his job.

No matter what his salary is, greed may lead him to take bribes regardless.

> When bribery becomes so regular and highly routine, to the point where you can be seen to justly complain about the bribe being raised

Well, it sounds like you're thinking from the point of view of that "auxiliary taxation" mentioned above. I still can't see how a group of people collecting bribes in some kind of hierarchy is not all about greed. I'm pretty sure the bribes don't actually improve the job performance of those policemen or the other looters up the chain.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#118

Post by chii »

soc88 wrote: post #80
asto wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incid…

So what? It isn't better in the US, it's just more acceptable to you.

"It isn't better in the US, it's just more acceptable to you."

i m sure it is much better in the US of A, or any other western countries. Hyperbole can only be taken so far.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#119

Post by buyx »

slurgfest wrote: post #88
buyx wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. South Africa spends large amounts on education has a huge amount of human potential that is being wasted because of the dysfunctional public school system (I speak as an almost-victim of that system). I don't see the grip of SADTU (the largest teacher union, and indirectly aligned to the ruling party) being weakened, and I expect a few more generations of mediocrity, unless something radical is done. Interes…

Does it fix the problem if there simply is no public school system, and everyone who isn't wealthy simply doesn't go to school? South Africa is better compared to the rest of Sub-Saharan Africa than to Denmark.

South Africa's education outcomes are worse than the rest of Africa[1].

And some schools are worse than staying at home (sexual abuse by teachers).

[1] http://www.economist.com/node/15270976

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