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Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

theguardian.com

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Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#181

Post by cortesoft »

gefriertrockner wrote: post #176
cortesoft wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can have a conversation with 99.9% of humans, something you can’t do with any other animal. The other list of accomplishments is not even needed to surpass what animals can do. You have to be intentionally being obtuse to suggest that the gal between humans and animals is not an order of magnitude away from the gap b…

Your point doesn't touch my argument. I'm saying if you are claiming superiority over other animals, you can also claim superiority over weaker humans, for the same reasons, with the same results. By the way, you can't have a proper conversation with someone, if you don't speak the same language.

Even if someone doesn't speak the same language, we can communicate in a way that animals simply can't. I think the fact that different civilizations have been able to contact each other throughout history, and even when not speaking the same language at all, establish relations shows that it isnt just that we don't speak animal languages, but that they are fundamentally different in their ability to communicate.

To answer your other argument, there is a different fundamental level of 'superiority' over animals that you could never argue for over humans. Even the most 'primitive' of civilizations have been able to articulate their resistance to oppressors in a way no animal has ever even come close to doing. Again, the orders of magnitude difference between humans and animals makes it a completely different comparison than between humans and 'weaker' humans. It is insulting to humans to imply it is the same thing.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#182

Post by hirvi74 »

cortesoft wrote: post #168
gefriertrockner wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The complexity of human language, social structure, and technology is not even in the same ballpark as animals. Humans make iPhones and travel to space and write War and Peace. We dominate the world, changing its very climate and wiping countless species off the planet, and no other species even tries to stop us. That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can…

> That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can have a conversation with 99.9% of humans, something you can’t do with any other animal. The other list of accomplishments is not even needed to surpass what animals can do. You have to be intentionally being obtuse to suggest that the gal between humans and animals is not an order of magnitude away from the gap b…

Humans might not be able to converse with animals like one another. Humans can absolutely communicate with other animals, especially other mammals, to varying degrees. I believe such communication could argued as a form of conversation.

Are humans more intelligent than animals though? By human definitions and metrics? Unquestionably. However, I am not convinced that humans are truly superior in every facet of intelligence.

I have mental health issues, I breathe in toxic air, consume poisonous food and drink, wait in traffic to go to some miserable office, to be surrounded by miserable people, to do meaningless work. I do all of this so that I may survive and placate myself with the leftovers. Other "intelligent" humans give me concoctions that alter my brain chemistry in order to help me cope and distract myself from our Sisyphean existence.

In Greek mythology, Sisyphus was punished for believing he was more intelligent than the gods. I sometimes wonder if we, too, are punished for believing we are superior to nature. Perhaps true intelligence is not defined by our metrics after all.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#183

Post by nozzlegear »

suprjami wrote: post #84
switch007 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood people who say dogs are hard to train. They are SO motivated by food

I have a dog who is so food-motivated that he gets distracted by the chance of a treat and won't learn anything.

Ha, I was going to say the same thing! We have a Black Lab with the same problem, he's so motivated by food that he gets tunnel vision and can't focus on anything but the treat in our hands. Training him was tough.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#184

Post by blinkeer »

csallen wrote: post #165
authorfly wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's cool but dogs remembering names is more insightful in an exciting way, let me elucidate on why it's pretty fascinating! We know how place memories work quite well, Place and Grid cells specifically. There is a natural and almost physical level of 1:1 mapping at various scales[1] from location (based on different tracking systems - point integration, landmarks, your own steps) to activating cells in your brain.…

This is all fascinating stuff. I love the idea behind memory palaces, and this stuff about place/grid cells sounds like the explanatory science behind it. Any reading you'd recommend? > And clearly we humans forget many of the sounds we have heard (e.g. songs, lyrics). > It's true we forget many sounds, but songs and lyrics is a curious example. I'd guess those were high on the list of things humans are good at remem…

Dominic OBrien is a memory champion. He's got some good material on it.

https://artofmemory.com/blog/how-to-build-a-memory-palace/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominic_O%27Brien

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9684328-you-can-have-an-...

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#185

Post by RoyalHenOil »

OtomotO wrote: post #112
rkagerer wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My dog must have missed the memo. He'll come over at EXACTLY 6 o'clock (to the minute) to remind you about dinner if it hasn't yet been served. He used to do the same in the morning but eventually we reached a truce on the concept of sleeping in from time to time.

That's why you never feed them at an exact time. We have a time frame of roughly 3 hours in which we feed the dog. That way we can have a nice dinner too, go to a musical etc. pp. A friend of ours made the same mistake as you. His dog becomes a real diva after 6pm, if she hasn't eaten

I tried doing that with my dogs, but it led to them being annoyingly clingy as their general dinner time approached because they knew they could be fed suddenly at any time.

So I switched to using a phone alarm that marks when it's time to feed the dogs. I can easily change the time it rings to adjust their meal times, and they remain patient because they know that they won't be fed until they hear that sound.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#186

Post by hnick »

SkyPuncher wrote: post #147
hnick wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A rule of thumb we were taught is half the food comes from training (not to the point of cruelty, adjust the training to be easier if needed so they get enough). You can adjust per dog, but many people treat training rewards as "treats" which are surplus to their needs, so greedy or food-loving dogs (I would be one, as is our first dog) will take it but others won't care. High stress or emotional arousal or a distrac…

We used that for dog #1. Works great to be able to dole out kibble for training. Dog #2 just doesn't care. She eats the recommended daily amount, but will take hours to finish a meal. Walking away and coming back later. She just doesn't care about food.

Yeah they really do vary a lot. Something I did not appreciate until getting my first as an adult (as a child, I had no positive feelings towards dogs which I find sad now).

I have heard trainers who suggest meal time is meal time, the food is taken if it is not eaten, it's not a self-serve grazing buffet. I think part of it is about making it clear who is in charge, especially if a dog is not listening during training, but there are other reasons I forget like resource guarding and predictable toileting. But we all decide how much we let them express their personalities :)

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#187

Post by ratmice »

gefriertrockner wrote: post #120
cortesoft wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am in no way religious, and I don't think we are fundamentally different than other animals, but I don't think it is surprising that most of us (myself included) think of human emotions and intelligence as being on a completely different level than animals. The complexity of human language, social structure, and technology is not even in the same ballpark as animals. Humans make iPhones and travel to space and writ…

> The complexity of human language, social structure, and technology is not even in the same ballpark as animals. Humans make iPhones and travel to space and write War and Peace. We dominate the world, changing its very climate and wiping countless species off the planet, and no other species even tries to stop us. That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can…

There is also the notion that we have evolved a empathy for humans over other animals because it is beneficial. So that the 99.9% don't hunt down the .1% for sport.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#188

Post by gitaarik »

gitaarik wrote: post #167
poikroequ wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the experiment you're referring to. It's been a long time since I've seen it, no idea how to find it now, but you're definitely misremembering some details. Dogs do have a sense of time, but in that experiment, it actually had to do with scent. As their owner was away, their scent would gradually dissipate throughout the day. At a certain point, the scent was weak enough that the dog knew it was about time for…

Aha, interesting, I looked up some info about it and it seems that in another experiment the dogs also reacted when the owner went home at irregular times. Quite interesting: https://www.sheldrake.org/research/animal-powers/a-dog-that-...

Actually, here are both the experiments side-by-side:

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA5wAm2c01w

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftr9yY-YuYU

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#189

Post by hdivider »

gefriertrockner wrote: post #176
cortesoft wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's true only for a small subset of humans. 99.9% of humans achieve no feat as you describe. You can have a conversation with 99.9% of humans, something you can’t do with any other animal. The other list of accomplishments is not even needed to surpass what animals can do. You have to be intentionally being obtuse to suggest that the gal between humans and animals is not an order of magnitude away from the gap b…

Your point doesn't touch my argument. I'm saying if you are claiming superiority over other animals, you can also claim superiority over weaker humans, for the same reasons, with the same results. By the way, you can't have a proper conversation with someone, if you don't speak the same language.

FWIW: I think your point is highly insightful. Very deep, and I'll be thinking about it for quite some time! It all comes from the same psychological place -- reminds me of autocracy vs democracy. In one, presumed superiority of the autocrat, leading to apparently justified mistreatment of all others. In the other, presumed equality of all, leading to agreed-upon consequences if others are mistreated.

Re: Dogs can remember names of toys years after not seeing them, study shows

#190

Post by gradschoolfail »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #54
082349872349872 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I've heard avalanche dogs are trained here is that they are rewarded for accurate information, so in principle they ought to be as satisfied with their job after finding "no people" or "dead person" as well as "live person".

Dogs are social creatures. These dogs are well aware of humans as fellow social creatures. Constantly finding dead people might be inherently distressing, in the same way it'd be distressing to constantly find dead dogs.

wizzwizz4 seems to be one of those salvated ex-losers* (in the world of Rao’s Gervais Principle), thus he may or may not engage, but here goes anyways (Shalom lakh Miryam!)

in deference to 082349872349872’s curiosity, human beings can, in principle, train dogs (in this very limited context) to walk the fine line between bad faith (not exhibiting distress) and good faith (exhibiting distress).

Can they, in reality?

*or, maybe like Athena, born fully salvated from a crack in Zeus (athenogenesis)

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