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The "email is authentication" pattern

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Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#301
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More places is more opportunities for the baddies to get it.

Shamir it.

I don't understand why this was downvoted. In case it's not clear: (S)he's saying to split the key into multiple shares that can be used to reconstruct the key if you have a large enough quorum. Then store each share in a different place. As long as you don't lose too many of the shares, you'll be fine. And one baddie is NOT enough to get the key.

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#303
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same problem that you run into with secret zero and commonly discussed in context of HashiCorp Vault. At some point you need to store the unlock keys then you need another repository under RBAC to protect that repository. They say to print out the keys and store them offline on paper but how many own a Class 5 safe ?

How many own a lot of books? Just... pick one.

Not following? Do you know what I meant by a Class 5 safe?

https://www.norfolksafe.com/

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#304
post #3

Email accounts are the highest common denominator in online authentication. Phones are competitive, but people lose phones. Phone numbers are more common and durable, but the security of phone numbers is leagues below that of a flagship provider email account. It makes sense that so many authentication flows work this way. When designing a "fantasy football" alternate authentication system for the Internet, start wit…

Government provided digital IDs would solve a lot of this. Yes, they may have their own problems, but outsourcing the action of identifying individuals to the government seems valuable and less prone to "lock outs" like Google and friends.

> Government provided digital IDs would solve a lot of this.

Over here in EU, we have something like it - you get an ID card that has two PIN codes that you can use with a card reader and some software to digitally sign documents and such: https://www.eparaksts.lv/en/ (of course, there's also a mobile version)

In addition, there now are services where you can log in to your bank account, confirm payments, or just log in to your government portal account with a two factor app, the account on which is based on your identity: https://www.smart-id.com/

So if I make a payment online with my card, I'll have to authenticate through either a code calculator (physical piece of hardware) or the phone app with codes that I've chosen, to confirm it. Same for logging into various sites, for example, for paying my utilities.

Works pretty well and if I lose my ID card, then I can get a new one, issue new certificates for the apps and continue where I left off (with the old ones being revoked). I might need a backup phone too, though, since not being able to confirm my payments if my phone breaks is pretty stupid (though I guess Revolut/PayPal/whatever still work as expected, unless I only have my OTP codes for those on said phone).

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#305
post #236

>why they do this There is always a simple answer to such question, and it's usually about some inconvenience the service provider decided to set-up for the user. In this particular case I think the answer is obvious: email provider usually have a session which never really ends, and just sits there logged in unless the browser cache is wiped. Make your service auth token to live for the same time as Gmail's, and as…

I think this is closer to hinting at the truth. GMail and Cloudflare (and many other "high security orgs) have very long auth sessions. Why? Because the chance of somebody getting onto the PC of someone who uses these systems and hasn't logged out is actually really low. Most hacks are remote and based on weak passwords.

Unfortunately, we lack the consistent language to measure risk and decide "do I really need 2FA on this site?" "Is 30 minutes a reasonable session time?". I think as long as someone has an up-to-date virus checker, most would rather stay logged in to stuff. Anyone ever been asked to delete all cookies to fix a problem on a site? My answer is always to "go fish".

I remember somebody saying before, "it's your account, if you want to stay logged in and risk a hack, it's your risk not the company running the service". I believe that more and more. If your laptop is logged in and someone deletes all your EC2 instances, that's on you, not AWS for not logging you out sooner. They could but why should they? Piss off 1M users to try and protect 1 person who is too careless?

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#306
The idea that someone is going to invent and remember a password for every dumb service is not real, and when you build another password based authentication system, you are doing a kind of LARP.

Passwords are used in one of two ways:

1. a password manager guarded by a single actual password

2. the same password repeated between services

Practically every service offers e-mail recovery, so, in practice, your e-mail is your authentication.

Personal e-mail accounts are rarely replaced, not shared, and aren't reused. You've probably had your personal e-mail longer than your phone number. I've had at least five phone numbers in the life time of my current e-mail address. Other people now have those numbers.

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#307

I’ve seen sites that cut out the forgotten password step, or passwords entirely… email is the authentication. 1. Type in email address 2. Get sent and email with code 3. Enter code to login While I can understand why someone might do this, as someone with multiple emails I kind of hate it. I had to add it to my password manager with the email and a note, so I remember which one to use and it’s not missing a password.

I have stopped giving websites money because the friction of using magic links was too much and I found alternatives that didn’t involve such a dumb login system. My theory is if you can’t make a proper login system you’re skills probably aren’t good enough to deliver on what you’re promising. Magic links have turned from an annoyance to a filter for me.

"My theory is if you can’t make a proper login system you’re skills probably aren’t good enough to deliver on what you’re promising."

Using that logic, I wouldn't trust most websites I visit. Even FAANG companies with their billions can't do certain things properly. Even something reallly basic like focus the 2FA box when you ask for the code, don't make me have to click on it! Don't stop people pasting passwords, don't limit how long the password can be (within reason) don't say they can't use arbitrary characters like a - because "SQL Injection" and don't invent riduculous hurdles like adding random digits from a secret word as well as your password. If you are going to do that, just ask for two passwords or tell people if you choose stupid passwords, you will be hacked!

I like the password strength meter that doesn't block passwords that it has mistakenly decided are weak (20 random alpnanumerics) but instead estimates how quickly it could be hacked. People don't understand entropy but might understand "hacked in 5 minutes", they also don't want to be told that your password has to be at least 100 characters long with uppers, lowers, numbers, specials, klingon etc. If your system is that susceptible you are doing it wrong.

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Base password plus company name or initials. One password mutated into infinite variations that are easy to remember. This has been working fine for me for at least 15 years.

What do you use for the base password? The website name? So if someone finds out your password for a certain site is `Facebook1234ABCD` they have a fair guess at every other password? Same applies for `MyPasswordFB` using the reverse method.

My base password is secret but it is an alpha numeric string with mixed caps. An example would be “p45Sw0rD-Apple+” something in that vain.

So in the end the password contains numbers, letters both capped and lower case and special characters.

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#309

The idea that someone is going to invent and remember a password for every dumb service is not real, and when you build another password based authentication system, you are doing a kind of LARP. Passwords are used in one of two ways: 1. a password manager guarded by a single actual password 2. the same password repeated between services Practically every service offers e-mail recovery, so, in practice, your e-mail i…

Apple has made the incredibly annoying “you can’t just enter your 1Password/keychain password, you have to dick around with email” process much nicer; at least when it can recognize the email/text and enter the code for you.

Re: The "email is authentication" pattern

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To get a RealID drivers license in the US, which will be required to board a plane soon, requires all of the above and more. It’s a government in-person KYC.

Not 100% required, even for adults. Those without acceptable identification may complete an identity verification process and face additional screening. https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification

Everyone should experience this at least once - it’s eye opening.

I did it involuntarily because I forgot my wallet once, and decided “well, I’ll either get through and in my way, or I’m too late to drive home anyway and will miss” - and it worked fine.

Even crossed back into the USA without my passport a few times. Just additional screening and bitching is all (at least if you’re a US citizen; membership in the Empire has its perks!).

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