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Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

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Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#441
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

Contrarian take: I feel that copilot rewards me for writing patterns that it can then use to write an entire function given a method signature.

The more you lean into functional patterns: design some monads, don’t do I/O except at the boundaries, use fluent programming, then it’s highly effective.

This is all in Java, for what it’s worth. Though, I’ll admit, I’m 3.5y into Java, and rely heavily on Java 8+ features. Also, heavy generic usage in my library code gives a lot of leash to the LLM to consistently make the right choice.

I don’t see these gains as much when using quicker/sloppier designs.

Would love to hear more from true FP users (Haskell, OCaml, F#, Scala).

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#442
post #11

For me AI just brought back documentation. All new frameworks lack documentation big time. The last good one for me was a DOS book! I don't think newer developers even have an idea of what good documentation looks like. Even so, AI will propose different things at different times and you still need an experienced developer to make the call. In the end it replaces documentation and typing.

Oh hey I really love writing great docs, of course not always I have the opportunity to do so, but could you point me to one you consider great? Can be anything, no need to be some modern live docs. I want to see what is in the past that was so great but we lost, maybe I can incorporate some of it.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#443
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

I used the Copilot trial. I found myself waiting to see what it would come up with, analyzing it, and most often time throwing it away for my own implementation. I quickly realized how much of a waste of time it was. I did find use for it in writing unit tests and especially table-driven testing boilerplate but that's not enough to maintain a paid subscription.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#444

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

> Now you have new devs coming into insanely complex n-microservice environments, being asked to learn the existing codebase, being asked to learn their 5-tool CI/CD pipelines (and that ain't being taught in school), being asked to learn to be DBAs, and also to keep up a steady code release cycle.

If fewer people need to undertake more roles, I think the simplest things you can get away with should be chosen, yet for whatever reason that's not what's happening.

Need a front end app? Go for the modern equivalent of jQuery/Bootstrap, e.g. something like Vue, Pinia and PrimeVue (you get components out of the box, you can use them, you don't have to build a whole design system, if needed can still do theming). Also simpler than similar setups with Vuex or Redux in React world.

Need a back end app? A simple API only project in your stack of choice, whether that's Java with Dropwizard (even simpler than Spring Boot), C# with ASP.NET (reasonably simple out of the box), PHP with Laravel, Ruby with Rails, Python with Flask/Django, Node with Express etc. And not necessarily microservices but monoliths that can still horizontally scale. A boring RESTful API that shuffles JSON over the wire, most of the time you won't need GraphQL or gRPC.

Need a database? PostgreSQL is pretty foolproof, MariaDB or even SQLite can also work in select situations. Maybe something like Redis/Valkey or MinIO/SeaweedFS, or RabbitMQ for specific use cases. The kinds of systems that can both scale, as well as start out as a single container running on a VPS somewhere.

Need a web server? Nginx exists, Caddy exists, as does Apache2.

Need to orchestrate containers? Docker Compose (or even Swarm) still exist, Nomad is pretty good for multi node deployments too, maybe some relatively lightweight Kubernetes clusters like K3s with Portainer/Rancher as long as you don't go wild.

CI/CD? Feed a Dockerfile to your pipeline, put the container in Nexus/Artifactory/Harbor/Hub, call a webhook to redeploy, let your monitoring (e.g. Uptime Kuma) make sure things remain available.

Architectures that can fit in one person's head. Environments where you can take every part of the system and run it locally in Docker/Podman containers on a single dev workstation. This won't work for huge projects, but very few actually have projects that reach the scale where this no longer works.

Yet, this is clearly not what's happening, that puzzles me. If we don't have 20 different job titles involved in a project, then the complexity covered under the "GlassFish app server configuration manager" position shouldn't be there in the first place (once had a project like that, there was supposed to be a person involved who'd configure the app server for the deployments, until people just went with embedded Tomcat inside of deployable containers, that complexity suddenly dissipated).

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#446
post #435
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

I like to use copilot when writing tests. It's not always perfect but makes things less tedious for me.

Excuse my ignorance, i have avoided copilot until now..

Does it have (some of) the other files of the project in it's context, when you use it in a test file?

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#447
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all small symptoms of late stage capitalism and closing on end of an era. Like Rome, corruption, laziness and barbarians will tear it all down.

I don't need help identifying the problem, I need help solving the problem.

You solve a problem. You survive a predicament. ...or you don't.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#448
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

I only use Copilot and Claude to do all the boilerplate and honestly just the mechanical part of writing code. But I don't use it to come up with solutions. I'll do my thing understanding the problem, figuring out a solution, etc. and once I've done everything to ensure I know what needs to be written, I use to AI to do most of that. It saves a hell of a lot of time and typing.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#449
post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time imagining someone who has "curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving" regarding programming and yet hasn't stumbled upon bitwise operators (and then immediately found them interesting). They're pretty fundamental to the craft. I can see having to refresh on various bit shifting techniques for fast multiplication etc (though any serous program should at least be aware of this), but XOR is…

There is a world of difference between stumbling upon, knowing about in general and being proficient with -because of using on regular basis- some tech piece. I do know how bitwise AND, NOT, OR, XOR work but I don't solve problems on day to day basis that use those. If you give me two bytes to do the operations manually it is going to be a piece of cake for me. If you give me a problem where most optimal solution is…

> given couple of months working on those problems I would get proficient rather fast - but no one wants to wait couple of months ;)

yet they'll take a couple of months interviewing folks, and generally not find the unicorn they're after.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#450
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

Canceled copilot, using cursor now
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