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Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

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Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#411
post #404

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

For me DevOps/DevSecOps is reaction movement against toxic turf wars and silos of functions from ambitious people - not some business people scheme to reduce headcount and push more responsibilities. I have received e-mails "hey thats DB don't touch that stuff you are not a DBA" or "hey developers shouldn't do QA" while the premise might be right, lots of things could be done much quicker. I have seen throwing stuff…

> For me DevOps/DevSecOps is reaction movement against toxic turf wars and silos of functions from ambitious people

Well the DevOps grandfathers (sorry, Patrick & Kris, but you're both grey now) certainly wanted to tear down the walls that had been put up between Devs & Ops. Merging Dev & Ops practices has been a fundamentally good change. Many tasks that used to be dedicated Ops/Infra work are now so automated that a Dev can do them as part of their daily work (e.g. spinning up a test environment or deploying to production). This has been, in a sense, about empowerement.

The current "platform engineering"-buzz builds on top of that.

> - not some business people scheme to reduce headcount and push more responsibilities

I imagine that many business people don't understand tech work well enough to deliberately start such schemes. Reducing toil could probably result in lower headcount (no one likes being part of a silo that does the same manual things over and over again just to deploy to production), but by the same count the automations don't come free. They have to be set up and maintained. Once one piece of drudgery has been automated, something else will rear its ugly head. Automating the heck out of boring shit is not only more rewarding work, it's also a force multiplier for a team. I hope business people see those benefits and aim for them, instead of the aforementioned scheming.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#412
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

For me, AI is like a documentation/Googlefu accelerant. There are so many little things that I know exactly what I want to do, but can't remember the syntax or usage.

For example, writing IaC especially for AWS, I have to look up tons of stuff. Asking AI gets me answers and examples extremely fast. If I'm learning the IaC for a new service I'll look over the AWS docs, but if I just need a quick answer/refresher, AI is much faster than going and looking it up.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#413

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

This is happening across the board, not just to IT workers, and I suspect it's the major factor as for why the expected productivity improvements from technology didn't materialize. Think of your "DevSecOps" people doing 3x the work they should. Do you know what else are they doing? Booking their own business travels. Reconciling and reporting their own expenses. Reporting their own hours, broken down by business cat…

> Think of your "DevSecOps" people doing 3x the work they should. Do you know what else are they doing? Booking their own business travels. Reconciling and reporting their own expenses. Reporting their own hours, broken down by business categories. Managing their own vacation days. Managing their own meetings. Creating presentations on their own, with graphics they made on their own. Possibly even doing 80% of work on lining up purchases from third parties. And a bunch of other stuff like that.

It feels like you are working at the same company as me.

Companies complain all the time about how difficult it is to find competent developers, which is their excuse for keeping most of the teams understaffed. Okay, then how about increasing the developers' productivity by letting them focus on, you know, development?

Why does the paperwork I need to do after visiting a dentist during the lunch break take more time than the visit itself? It's not enough just to bring the receipt to HR; I need to scan the paper, print the scan, get it signed by a manager, start a new process in a web application, ask the manager to also sign it in the web application, etc. I need to check my notes every time I am doing it, because the web application asks me a lot of information that in theory it should already know, and the attached scan needs to have a properly formatted file name, and I need to figure out the name of the person I should forward this process to, rather than the application figuring it out itself. Why??? The business travels were even worse, luckily my current company doesn't do those frequently.

My work is defined by Jira tickets that mostly contain a short description like "implement XY for Z", and it's my job to figure out wtf is "Z", who is the person in our company responsible for "Z", what exactly they meant by "XY", where is any specification, when is the deadline, who am I supposed to coordinate with, and who will test my work. I miss the good old days when we had some kind of task description and the definition of done, but those were the days when we had multiple developers in a team, and now it's mostly just me.

I get invitations to meetings that do not concern me or any of my projects, but it's my job to figure that out, not the job of the person who sent the invitations. Don't get me started on e-mails, because my inbox only became manageable after I wrote dozen rules that put various junk in the spam folder. No, I don't need a notification every time someone in the company made an edit on any Confluence page. No, I don't need notifications about people committing code to projects I am not working on. The remaining notifications often come in triplicate, because first I get a message in Teams, then an e-mail saying that I got a message in Teams, and finally a Windows notification saying that I got a new e-mail. When I return from a vacation, I spend my first day or two just sorting out the flood in my e-mails.

On some days, it is lunchtime before I had an opportunity to write my first line of code. So it's the combination of being Agile-Full-Stack-Dev-Sec-Ops-Cloud-Whatever and the fact that everything around me seems designed to make my work harder that is killing me. This is a system that slows down 10x developers to 1x developers, and us lesser mortals to mere 0.1x developers.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#414
post #51

I wonder if the study includes the technical debt that more experienced developers had to tackle after the less experienced devs have contributed their AI-driven efforts. Because my personal experience has involved a lot of that in one of the companies listed in the study. Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. PMs love them th…

Disclaimer: I work at a company who sells coding AI (among many other things). We use it internally and the technical debt is an enormous threat that IMO hasn't been properly gauged. It's very very useful to carpet bomb code with APIs and patterns you're not familiar with, but it also leads to insane amounts of code duplication and unwieldy boilerplate if you're not careful, because: 1. One of the two big bias of the…

> (nobody ever writes: bug introduced)

it's usually written "feature: ...

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not a switch up. The author said that an engineer would find these during their journey, and I am asking when. I don't have a strongly held opinion here, I literally want to know when. I am curious about it.

I found them in 2015 when I was maintaining a legacy app for a university. The developer that implemented them could have used a few bools but decided to cram it all into one byte using bitwise operators because they were trying to seem smart/clever. This was a web app, not a microcontroller or some other tightly constrained environment. One should not have to worry about solar flares! Heh.

> trying to seem smart/clever

Nobody that uses bit flags do it because they think it makes them look clever. If anything they believe it looks like using the most basic of tools.

> One should not have to worry about solar flares!

Do you legitimately believe that a bool is immune to this? Yeah, I get this a joke, but it's one told from a conceit.

This whole post comes off as condescending to cover up a failure to understand something basic.

I get it, someone called you out on it at some point in your life and you have decided to strike back, but come on... do you really think you benefit from this display?

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#416
I've used Copilot and chatGPT to help with algorithms where I'm unsure where to start. Actual case: "Write a performant algorithm to find the number of work days given a future date". It's trickier than you think and makes a great interview question.

Both AI tools came back with...garbage. Loops within loops within loops as they iterated through each day to check if the day is a weekend or not, is a leap year and to account for the extra day, is it a holiday or not, etc.

However, chatGPT provided a clever division to cut the dataset down to weeks, then process the result. I ended up using that portion in my final algorithm creation.

So, my take on AI coding tools are: "Buyer beware. Your results may vary".

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#417
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

true, ChatGPT even imports libraries and configs that are 4-5 year outdated.

I didn't mean to say the answer is outdated... I try not to give people outdated answers :-\

Neither do I, but those answers later become outdated anyway. :D

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#418
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I work at a company who sells coding AI (among many other things). We use it internally and the technical debt is an enormous threat that IMO hasn't been properly gauged. It's very very useful to carpet bomb code with APIs and patterns you're not familiar with, but it also leads to insane amounts of code duplication and unwieldy boilerplate if you're not careful, because: 1. One of the two big bias of the…

Consider myself very fortunate to have lived long enough that I'm reading a thread where the subject is the quality of the code generated by software. Decades of keeping that lollypop ready to be given, and now look where we are!

The rate at which I quote Perlis 93 is a roughly quadratic function of the number of quarters since coding LLMs were first deployed.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#419

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

One person can do the work of 3 and regularly does in startups. I think that what the MBAs miss is this phenomena of overconstraint . Once you have separate the generic role of "developer" into "developer, operations, and security", you've likely specified all sorts of details about how those roles need to be done. When you combine them back into DevSecOps, all the details remain, and you have one person doing 3x the…

In a startup you get significantly more focus time than in a large company. Especially if there is no production yet - there are no clients, no production bugs, no-call.

In a larger company, literally 80% of your job is meetings, Slack, and distractions.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#420

I've used Copilot and chatGPT to help with algorithms where I'm unsure where to start. Actual case: "Write a performant algorithm to find the number of work days given a future date". It's trickier than you think and makes a great interview question. Both AI tools came back with...garbage. Loops within loops within loops as they iterated through each day to check if the day is a weekend or not, is a leap year and to…

I was never able to use them well, but cursor.ai together with Claude is starting to feel actually useful
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