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Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

arstechnica.com

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Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#11

Post by djtango »

steve1977 wrote: post #6
9dev wrote: post #3

That is as close to alchemy as we’re probably ever gonna get then!

Not really I think, as this is not transforming something else into gold, it just kind of lumps existing gold together (if I understood the article correctly).

We have a name for that kind of alchemy - nuclear fission/fusion.

Because gold is so inert (a noble metal) its counterintuitive to see it in other forms eg in solution. In that sense manipulating gold in other forms than its elemental form probably feels like alchemy in common parlance.

I know aqua regia is relatively normal but I still find it weird to think of gold being dissolved

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#12

Post by lukan »

9dev wrote: post #3

That is as close to alchemy as we’re probably ever gonna get then!

No, closer to alchemy is the actual creation of gold from other elements with nuclear physics.

Was demonstrated quite a long time ago, but is not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it.

(That is why I always prefered physics over chemistry - my chemistry book in school started with the story of the alchimists and concluded that they were bound to fail as gold cannot be created.

And in my physics book was just the formula to create gold)

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#13

Post by krisoft »

lukan wrote: post #12
9dev wrote: post #3

That is as close to alchemy as we’re probably ever gonna get then!

No, closer to alchemy is the actual creation of gold from other elements with nuclear physics. Was demonstrated quite a long time ago, but is not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it. (That is why I always prefered physics over chemistry - my chemistry book in school started with the story of the alchimists and concluded that they were bound to fail as gold cannot be created . And in my physics boo…

> not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it.

It is quite practical. You just pour a big pile of hydrogen out, let gravity compress it until it starts fusing. Initially it will only create helium but near the end of the pile’s life you will get mountains of the other elements too.

Easy breasy. It just takes time and quite a bit of space and hydrogen. Much harder to scale it down of course. But think big and aim for a star as they say.

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#14

Post by 9dev »

steve1977 wrote: post #6
9dev wrote: post #3

That is as close to alchemy as we’re probably ever gonna get then!

Not really I think, as this is not transforming something else into gold, it just kind of lumps existing gold together (if I understood the article correctly).

Obviously my comment was meant in jest, but I still think your typical 17th century alchemist would be quite convinced you've figured out Chrysopoeia if you showed them this process—even if it's just lumping trace amounts of gold together.

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#15

Post by mr_toad »

krisoft wrote: post #13
lukan wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, closer to alchemy is the actual creation of gold from other elements with nuclear physics. Was demonstrated quite a long time ago, but is not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it. (That is why I always prefered physics over chemistry - my chemistry book in school started with the story of the alchimists and concluded that they were bound to fail as gold cannot be created . And in my physics boo…

> not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it. It is quite practical. You just pour a big pile of hydrogen out, let gravity compress it until it starts fusing. Initially it will only create helium but near the end of the pile’s life you will get mountains of the other elements too. Easy breasy. It just takes time and quite a bit of space and hydrogen. Much harder to scale it down of course. But think…

‘Natural’ fusion will only get you as far as iron. Supernovae may produce heavier elements, but the heaviest elements like gold are probably produced in neutron star collisions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleosynthesis#History_of_nuc...

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#16

Post by lazide »

djtango wrote: post #11
steve1977 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really I think, as this is not transforming something else into gold, it just kind of lumps existing gold together (if I understood the article correctly).

We have a name for that kind of alchemy - nuclear fission/fusion. Because gold is so inert (a noble metal) its counterintuitive to see it in other forms eg in solution. In that sense manipulating gold in other forms than its elemental form probably feels like alchemy in common parlance. I know aqua regia is relatively normal but I still find it weird to think of gold being dissolved

Aqua Regia is relatively normal in the sense that being threatened with a knife is relatively normal.

If you think it is, you’re probably hanging out in a pretty bad neighborhood. But yeah, most people won’t be surprised it exists.

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#17

Post by kragen »

lukan wrote: post #12
9dev wrote: post #3

That is as close to alchemy as we’re probably ever gonna get then!

No, closer to alchemy is the actual creation of gold from other elements with nuclear physics. Was demonstrated quite a long time ago, but is not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it. (That is why I always prefered physics over chemistry - my chemistry book in school started with the story of the alchimists and concluded that they were bound to fail as gold cannot be created . And in my physics boo…

> is not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it.

you can build the entire neutron spallation reactor out of materials much cheaper than gold, and you can get unlimited quantities; the only impracticality is that the humans are still really bad at building machinery

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#18

Post by itronitron »

kragen wrote: post #4
amelius wrote: post #2

So, in absence of quartz we could put large voltage sources on rocks and get gold out?

basically, yes, but the voltage required is very low (what needs to be large is the current), and you need to get the gold to dissolve. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S08926... is one of an enormous number of papers on the process, and ipmi has a careers video on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAkWMdrLXmo . shandong xinhai mining equipment corporation has a bunch of youtube videos mar…

Ocean water contains dissolved gold, although I wonder if the other elements in sea water would attach to the quartz or rock electrode first.

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#19

Post by adrian_b »

mr_toad wrote: post #15
krisoft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it. It is quite practical. You just pour a big pile of hydrogen out, let gravity compress it until it starts fusing. Initially it will only create helium but near the end of the pile’s life you will get mountains of the other elements too. Easy breasy. It just takes time and quite a bit of space and hydrogen. Much harder to scale it down of course. But think…

‘Natural’ fusion will only get you as far as iron. Supernovae may produce heavier elements, but the heaviest elements like gold are probably produced in neutron star collisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nucleosynthesis#History_of_nuc...

Supernova explosions are good enough to make gold (and most other heavier elements until plutonium) by neutron capture.

Fusion, as you say, produces quantities that diminish very quickly for the elements beyond iron (iron 56 has the greatest binding energy of any nucleus and the binding energy decreases slowly after it), so that the last element that is produced in non-negligible quantities by fusion is likely to be germanium.

Re: Natural Piezoelectric Effect May Build Gold Deposits

#20

Post by pfdietz »

lukan wrote: post #12
9dev wrote: post #3

That is as close to alchemy as we’re probably ever gonna get then!

No, closer to alchemy is the actual creation of gold from other elements with nuclear physics. Was demonstrated quite a long time ago, but is not really practical to get meaningful quantities out of it. (That is why I always prefered physics over chemistry - my chemistry book in school started with the story of the alchimists and concluded that they were bound to fail as gold cannot be created . And in my physics boo…

> No, closer to alchemy is the actual creation of gold from other elements with nuclear physics.

The place where this happens is in the liquid mercury target of the Spallation Neutron Source at Oak Ridge. Here, high energy protons shatter (spall) mercury nuclei, producing fragments that can include gold. An uncommon isotope of mercury can also be converted to gold by neutron capture.

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