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Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

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Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#401
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without judgement, this feels like a switch up. It seems to me that the prior author did not suggest they were necessary, but instead ambient, available, and interesting. Indeed for many they are not useful. At the same time, that might be a good indication of passion: a useless but foundational thing you learn despite having zero economic pressure to do so. In the domains you have worked on, what are examples of suc…

It is not a switch up. The author said that an engineer would find these during their journey, and I am asking when. I don't have a strongly held opinion here, I literally want to know when. I am curious about it.

Personally, I think it’s possible to not encounter them. I surely avoided them for a while in my own career, finding them to be the tricks of a low-level optimization expert of which I felt little draw.

But then I started investigating type systems and proof languages and discovered them through Boolean algebras. I didn’t work in that space, it was just interesting. I later learned more practically about bits through parsing binary message fields and wonder what the deal with endianness was.

I also recall that yarn that goes around from time to time about Carmack’s fast inverse square root algorithm. Totally useless and yet I recall the first time I read about it how fun a puzzle it was to work out the details.

I’ve encountered them many times since then despite almost never actually using them. Most recently I was investigating WASM and ran across Linear Memory and once again had an opportunity to think about the specifics of memory layout and how bytes and bits are the language of that domain.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#402
It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage.

I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is just distraction for me. It makes my workflow much much worse.

On the other hand, AI is incredibly useful for all of those steps I do before actually coding. And sometimes getting the first draft of something is as simple as a well crafted prompt (informed by all the thinking I’ve done prior to starting. After that, pairing with an LLM to get quick answers for all the little unexpected things that come up is extremely helpful.

So, contrary to this report, I think that if experienced developers use AI well, they could benefit MORE than inexperienced developers.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#403
post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without judgement, this feels like a switch up. It seems to me that the prior author did not suggest they were necessary, but instead ambient, available, and interesting. Indeed for many they are not useful. At the same time, that might be a good indication of passion: a useless but foundational thing you learn despite having zero economic pressure to do so. In the domains you have worked on, what are examples of suc…

It is not a switch up. The author said that an engineer would find these during their journey, and I am asking when. I don't have a strongly held opinion here, I literally want to know when. I am curious about it.

I found them in 2015 when I was maintaining a legacy app for a university.

The developer that implemented them could have used a few bools but decided to cram it all into one byte using bitwise operators because they were trying to seem smart/clever.

This was a web app, not a microcontroller or some other tightly constrained environment.

One should not have to worry about solar flares! Heh.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#404

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

For me DevOps/DevSecOps is reaction movement against toxic turf wars and silos of functions from ambitious people - not some business people scheme to reduce headcount and push more responsibilities.

I have received e-mails "hey thats DB don't touch that stuff you are not a DBA" or "hey developers shouldn't do QA" while the premise might be right, lots of things could be done much quicker.

I have seen throwing stuff over the wall "hey I am a developer, I don't care about some server stuff", "hey my DB is working fine it must be you application" or months of fixing an issue because no one would take the responsibility across the chain.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#405

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

This is happening across most industries. My friends in creative fields are experiencing the same "optimizations". I call this the great lie of productivity. The worker (particularly tech workers) have dreamed of reducing their time spent doing "shit jobs" while amplifying their productivity, so that we can spend more time doing what is meaningful to us... In reality businesses sell out to disconnected private equity and chase "growth" just to boost the wealth of the top. Ultimately this has played out as optimizing work force by reducing head count and spreading workers over more roles.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#406
post #402

It matters what you measure. The studies only looked at Copilot usage. I’m an experienced engineer. Copilot is worse than useless for me. I spend most of my time understanding the problem space, understanding the constraints and affordances of the environment I’m in and thinking about the code I’m going to write app. When I start typing code, I know what I’m going to write, and so a “helpful” Copilot autocomplete is…

I think my experience mirrors your own. We have access at my job but I’ve turned it off recently as it was becoming too noisy for my focus.

I found the tool to be extremely valuable when working in unfamiliar languages, or when doing rote tasks (where it was easy for me to identify if the generated code was up to snuff or not).

Where I think it falters for me is when I have a very clear idea of what I want to do, and its _similar_ to a bog standard implementation, but I’m doing something a bit more novel. This tends to happen in “reduce”s or other more nebulous procedures.

As I’m a platform engineer though, I’m in a lot of different spaces: Bash, Python, browser, vanilla JS, TS, Node, GitHub actions, Jenkins Java workflows, Docker, and probably a few more. It gives my brain a break while I’m context switching and lets me warm up a bit when I move from area to area.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you have a good point, I think the experts also branched off with some unreasonable requirements. I remember reading Yegge's blog post, years ago, saying that an engineer needed to know bitwise operators, otherwise they were not good enough. I don't know. Curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving seem to me much more important criteria for an engineer to have, rather than bitwise operations. An engine…

I have a hard time imagining someone who has "curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving" regarding programming and yet hasn't stumbled upon bitwise operators (and then immediately found them interesting). They're pretty fundamental to the craft. I can see having to refresh on various bit shifting techniques for fast multiplication etc (though any serous program should at least be aware of this), but XOR is…

There is a world of difference between stumbling upon, knowing about in general and being proficient with -because of using on regular basis- some tech piece.

I do know how bitwise AND, NOT, OR, XOR work but I don't solve problems on day to day basis that use those.

If you give me two bytes to do the operations manually it is going to be a piece of cake for me.

If you give me a problem where most optimal solution is using combination of those operations I most likely will use other solution that won't be optimal because on my day to day work I use totally different things.

A bit of a tangent is that is also why we have "loads of applicants willing to do tech jobs" and at the same time "skilled workers shortage" - if company needs someone who can solve optimally problems with bitwise operations "right here right now", I am not the candidate, given couple of months working on those problems I would get proficient rather fast - but no one wants to wait couple of months ;)

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. PMs love them though. You get what you measure. Nobody measure software quality.

Maybe not at your workplaces, but at mine, we measured bugs, change failure rate, uptime, "critical functionality" uptime, regressions, performance, CSAT, etc. in addition to qualitative research on quality in-team and with customers

That's 0.001% of the workplaces out there. But good for them. Do you think it actually improved software quality, or was it all busy work?

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can call it job specialisation. I don't do project managing, I do coding. Not my business to coordinate everyone, my job is to write code.

My job is typically to deliver features that make the company money. The writing of code is just a part of that. In my experience the people who solely focus on the code end up being significantly less effective.

> to deliver features

ah, see, so your job description includes, besides being a dev, also being a project manager. that's fine, there's nothing bad about it, it's just that your job requires a bit more from you than other places.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't found it that useful in my main product development (which while python based, uses our own framework and therefore there's not much code for CoPilot to go on and it usually suggests methods and arguments that don't exist, which just makes extra work). Where I do find it useful are 1) questions about frameworks/languages that I don't work in much and for which there is a lot of example content (i.e., Qt, CS…

It is revolutionary no doubt. How many pre-AI tools would accomplish an amount of 4 big features you mentioned at once?

I used Google Search for all of the above and would usually find what I needed in the first few hits -- which would lead to the appropriate doc page or an example page or a page on SO, etc.

So it's not like CoPilot is giving me information that I couldn't get fairly easily before. But it is giving it to me much __faster__ than I could access it before. I liken it to an IDE tool that allows you to look up API methods as you type. Or being able to ask an expert in that particular language/domain, except it's not as good as the expert because if the expert doesn't know something they're not going to make it up, they'll say "don't know".

So how much benefit you get from it is relative to how much you have to look up stuff that you don't know.

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