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Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

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Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#361

Post by throwthrowuknow »

Delk wrote: post #130

It's probably worth going a bit deeper into the paper before picking up conclusions. And I think the study could really do a bit of a better job of summarizing its results. The abstract and the conclusion only give a single percentage figure (26.08% increase in productivity, which probably has too many decimals) as the result. If you go a bit further, they give figures of 27 to 39 percent for juniors and 8 to 13 perc…

Personally, my feeling is that some of the difference is accounted for by senior devs who are applying their experience in code review and testing to the generated code and are therefore spending more time pushing back asking for changes, rejecting bad generations and taking time to implement tests to ensure the new code or refactor works as expected. The junior devs are seeing more throughput because they are working on tasks that are easier for the LLM to do right or making the mistake of accepting the first draft because it LGTM.

There is skill involved in using generative code models and it’s the same skill you need for delegating work to others and integrating solutions from multiple authors into a cohesive system.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#362

Post by moi2388 »

ang_cire wrote: post #90

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

From my experience it’s agile/scrum being poorly implemented.

So many companies no longer think about quality or design. “Just build this now and ship it, we can modify it later”, not thinking about the ramifications.

No thinking about design at all anymore, then having tech debt but not allocating any sprints to mitigate it.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#363

Post by malfist »

intelVISA wrote: post #308
GeoAtreides wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so you're saying PMs are not doing their job? and then you have to do the actual project managing? not ideal for you, very cushy job for them.

It's a popular grifter role for a reason.

The PM I work with most of the time introduced himself as "the next Elon Musk", so your assessment fits

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#364

Post by bluepizza »

crystal_revenge wrote: post #356
bluepizza wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you have a good point, I think the experts also branched off with some unreasonable requirements. I remember reading Yegge's blog post, years ago, saying that an engineer needed to know bitwise operators, otherwise they were not good enough. I don't know. Curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving seem to me much more important criteria for an engineer to have, rather than bitwise operations. An engine…

I have a hard time imagining someone who has "curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving" regarding programming and yet hasn't stumbled upon bitwise operators (and then immediately found them interesting). They're pretty fundamental to the craft. I can see having to refresh on various bit shifting techniques for fast multiplication etc (though any serous program should at least be aware of this), but XOR is…

It's probably a matter of domain, but most backend engineers who are working in Java/Golang/Python/Ruby systems have very little use of those, and they don't come up easily. Frontend (web or mobile), it comes up even less.

Can you tell me how this knowledge makes one a serious programmer? In which moments of the development lifecycle they are crucial?

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#365

Post by [deleted] »

moi2388 wrote: post #362
ang_cire wrote: post #90

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

From my experience it’s agile/scrum being poorly implemented. So many companies no longer think about quality or design. “Just build this now and ship it, we can modify it later”, not thinking about the ramifications. No thinking about design at all anymore, then having tech debt but not allocating any sprints to mitigate it.

[deleted]

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#366

Post by davidashe »

SoftTalker wrote: post #273
gruez wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do they have a place to mail your complaints? Who forces you to use the app? Presumably the building he lives in contracted out laundry service to some third party company, which is in charge of the machines and therefore shitty app. In this situation there really isn't any real choice to vote with your wallet. They can tell you to pound sand and there's nothing you can do. Your only real option is to move out. Mayb…

Most landlords are not complete assholes. They want to do what is reasonable to keep their tenants happy. It's much easier to re-sign a happy tenant than to have to turn over an apartment and spend time and money marketing it and possibly have it vacant for a while. If all the tenants hate the laundry app and let the landlord know (politely, with a list of machines that don't work, dates/times, etc), most likely it w…

“Most landlords are not complete assholes.”

Ummmm…

In my anecdotal experience, many New York City landlords don’t see their tenants as human beings, just a revenue source. Tenants complain? Maybe a city inspector shows up, a day or days later, so the landlord can turn the heat/water back on, and the inspector reports “no issue found.” People get mad and move out? New tenants pay an even higher rent! Heard horror stories about both individual and management company landlords. Can’t be the only city like this.

I’m pretty sure the long histories of social unrest under feudalism, the French Revolution, the mere existence of Marxism and Renter’s Rights Law, strongly beg to differ with your contention.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#367

Post by ptero »

lrem wrote: post #312
matrix2003 wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary I think it's worth adding here that US developers can have a much higher burden for things like health insurance. My child broke his arm this year, and we hit our very high deductible. I would like to see numbers factoring in things like public transportation, health insurance, etc., because I personally feel like EU vs US developers are a lot closer…

It’s not really about the numbers. My pile of money at retirement would definitely be larger if I moved across the pond. But here my children walk themselves to school from the age of six. I don’t worry about them getting killed by a madman. And even the homeless get healthcare, including functional mental health support. Things no employer can offer in the US.

This a very reasonable viewpoint. As a different personal opinion, I am glad that I live on my side of the pond.

I am in my early 50s, and having worked in tech for the last 24 (with sane hours and never at the FAANG salaries) I own my condo in a nice town, my kids college is paid for and my personal accounts are well into 7-digits.

This is not all roses: schools in the US stink (I have grown up on the other side of the pond and was lucky to get a great science education in school so I can see the difference), politics are polarized, supermarket produce is mediocre, etc.

The biggest issue for me though is that I suspect that the societies on both sides of the pond are going to go through major changes in the next 10-15 years and many social programs will become unaffordable. I see governments of every first world country making crazy financial and societal choices so rather than depending on government to keep me alive and well I much prefer US salaries allowing me to have money in my own hands. I can put some of that into gold or Bitcoin, or buy an inexpensive apartment in a quiet country with decent finances and reasonable healthcare. Not being totally beholden to the government is what helps me sleep well at night. My 2c.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#368

Post by tel »

bluepizza wrote: post #364
crystal_revenge wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time imagining someone who has "curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving" regarding programming and yet hasn't stumbled upon bitwise operators (and then immediately found them interesting). They're pretty fundamental to the craft. I can see having to refresh on various bit shifting techniques for fast multiplication etc (though any serous program should at least be aware of this), but XOR is…

It's probably a matter of domain, but most backend engineers who are working in Java/Golang/Python/Ruby systems have very little use of those, and they don't come up easily. Frontend (web or mobile), it comes up even less. Can you tell me how this knowledge makes one a serious programmer? In which moments of the development lifecycle they are crucial?

Without judgement, this feels like a switch up. It seems to me that the prior author did not suggest they were necessary, but instead ambient, available, and interesting. Indeed for many they are not useful.

At the same time, that might be a good indication of passion: a useless but foundational thing you learn despite having zero economic pressure to do so.

In the domains you have worked on, what are examples of such things?

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#369

Post by IgorPartola »

1dom wrote: post #326
IgorPartola wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is another bit to this which is cargo cult tendencies. Basically DevOps is a great idea under certain circumstances and works well for specific people in that role. Realistically if you take a top talent engineer they can likely step into any of the three roles or even some others and be successful. Having the synergy of one person being responsible for the boundary between two roles then makes your ROI…

> There is no methodology (organizational, programming, testing, etc.) that can make excellence out of mediocrity. This is a thought provoking phrase, and I liked that. Thinking a bit deeper, I'm not sure if it's accurate, practical or healthy though. I've seen mediocrity produce excellent solutions, and excellence churn out rubbish, and I suspect most people with a few years and tech jobs under their belt have. You…

I suppose I should have phrased that slightly kinder, and that’s on me. What I mean is that you can’t take your average jogger and expect them to win the 100 meter dash at the Olympics, no matter how much training and resources you provide them. Is that a real problem? No it certainly is not.

Lots of people like rock climbing but you can’t expect an average climber to win a major competition or climb some of the toughest mountains. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t enjoy climbing, but if they start training like they are about to free solo El Capitan they are very likely to get seriously hurt.

Average developed, operators, sec. people can do plenty of good work. But put them in a position that will require them to be doing things way out of their area of expertise and no matter how you structure that role and what tools you give them you are setting them up for failure.

Another thing I was thinking about was not individual people being average but rather organizations: an average mediocre organization cannot reliable expect excellence even out of its excellent employees. The environment just isn’t set up for success. I am sure most people here are familiar with having talented people working in an organization that decided to poorly adopt Agile because it’s the thing that will fix everything.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#370

Post by usrnm »

bluepizza wrote: post #364
crystal_revenge wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time imagining someone who has "curiosity, passion, focus, creative problem solving" regarding programming and yet hasn't stumbled upon bitwise operators (and then immediately found them interesting). They're pretty fundamental to the craft. I can see having to refresh on various bit shifting techniques for fast multiplication etc (though any serous program should at least be aware of this), but XOR is…

It's probably a matter of domain, but most backend engineers who are working in Java/Golang/Python/Ruby systems have very little use of those, and they don't come up easily. Frontend (web or mobile), it comes up even less. Can you tell me how this knowledge makes one a serious programmer? In which moments of the development lifecycle they are crucial?

You're talking past one another. The whole point of being interested and passionate about a topic is that you want to learn stuff regardless of whether or not it's useful
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