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Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

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Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#141
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you are trolling, I think I'll leave this here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

I'm not trolling, I've read Keurzweil's book... It's extrapolating. If I was a risk assesor, I'd err on the side of a mass extinction event over us consuming the entire universe as data.

There's already been 4 extinction events, it's pretty safe to bet that it will happen again.

But they happen 50-100 million years between each other and usually take thousands of years to take full effect once they begin.

Even if technological singularity takes an extra 100-200 years to really happen, if any significant 'AI' is achieved, a lot could happen in a thousand years, let alone a million.

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm his son. Let's take the example of The Netflix Prize, a $1 million bounty that the movie shipping organization ran several years ago. Their purpose was to improve their ratings prediction algorithm, under the pretext that people frequently ran out of ideas of what to rent, and that a successful suggestion algorithm would keep people as customers longer after that point. So, they carefully defined the success rate…

An image is a lot more complicated than a pair of ids and a rating. Counting the number of rows in the training database is misleading. I can build a reasonable dataset for a prediction task from a set of 100M rows from a database that I maintain in my spare time ( http://councilroom.com , predict player actions given partial game states). Don't get me wrong, the Netflix prize was cool. What's cool about this is that…

"An image is a lot more complicated than a pair of ids and a rating."

Predicting someone's reaction to a given movie is a lot more complicated than a pair of IDs and a rating, too, it turns out.

Let's take the speculation out of this.

You can get features of an image with simple large blob detection; four recurring boltzmann machines with half a dozen wires each can find the corners of a nose-bounding trapezoid quite easily. They'll get the job done in less than the 1/30 sec screen frame on the limited z80 knockoff in the original Dot Matrix Gameboy. You'll get better than 99% prediction accuracy. It takes about two hours to write the code, and you can train it with 20 or 30 examples unsupervised. I know, because I've done it.

On the other hand, getting 90% prediction accuracy from movie rating results takes teams of professional researchers years of work.

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"I can build a reasonable dataset for a prediction task from a set of 100M rows from a database that I maintain in my spare time"

And you won't get anywhere near the prediction accuracy I will with noses. That's the key understanding here.

It's not enough to say "you can do the job." If you want to say one is harder than the other, you actually have to compare the quality of the results.

There is no meaningful discussion of difficulty without discussion of success rates.

I mean I can detect noses on anything by returning 0 if you ignore accuracy.

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"What's cool about this is that Google hasn't given the learning system a high level task."

Yes it has. Feature detection is a high level task.

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"They basically say, figure out a lossy compression for these 10 million images."

I have never heard a compelling explanation of the claim that locating a bounding box is a form of lossy compression. It is my opinion that this is a piece of false wisdom that people believe because they've heard it often and have never really thought it over.

Typically, someone bumbles out phrases like "information theory" and then completely fails to show any form of the single important characteristic of lossy compression: reconstructibility.

Which, again, is wholly defined by error rate.

Which, again, is what you are casually ignoring while making the claim that finding bounding boxes is harder than predicting human preferences.

Which is false.

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"they find that it can effectively generate human faces and cats."

Filling in bounding boxes isn't generation. It's just paint by number geometry. This is roughly equivalent to using a point detector to find largest error against a mesh, then using that to select voronoi regions, then taking the color of that point and filling that region, then suggesting that that's also a form of compression, and that drawing the resulting dataset is generation.

And it isn't, because it isn't signal reductive.

Here, I made one for you, so you could see the difference. Those are my friends Jeff and Joelle. Say hi. The code is double-sloppy, but it makes the point.

http://fullof.bs/outgoing/vorcoder.html

See how I'm getting a dataset that isn't compression? See how that dataset is being used to make the original image, but nothing's being generated?

Same thing.

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#143

Can we perhaps edit "singularity is near" out of the title? This sounds impressive, but having a bunch of racks able to classify the outline of a face is vastly disconnected from machine and humanity merging.

Normally I advocate adherence to posting the original article title on HN, but if that had been the case I doubt this article would have ever got enough attention to be upvoted. Singularity is near is over the top.

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#144

The singularity is a poorly constructed myth. It is built around the presumption that intelligence is a linear function of CPU power, and that surely as CPU power rises, so shall intelligence; the problem is, that prediction was made in the 1970s, since which CPU power has risen ten decimal orders of magnitude, and we still don't have much better speech recognition than we did back then, let alone anything even appro…

Well, maybe. There are a whole lot of very different things called "The Singularity" and some of them are much more reasonable than others. There's the Cambpellian Singularity, which says that we won't be able to predict what will happen next. Pretty non-controversial as far as it goes. There's the Vingean Singularity, which says that if we ever develop AIs that can think as fast and as well as humans then due to Moo…

[deleted]

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#145

The singularity is a poorly constructed myth. It is built around the presumption that intelligence is a linear function of CPU power, and that surely as CPU power rises, so shall intelligence; the problem is, that prediction was made in the 1970s, since which CPU power has risen ten decimal orders of magnitude, and we still don't have much better speech recognition than we did back then, let alone anything even appro…

Well, maybe. There are a whole lot of very different things called "The Singularity" and some of them are much more reasonable than others. There's the Cambpellian Singularity, which says that we won't be able to predict what will happen next. Pretty non-controversial as far as it goes. There's the Vingean Singularity, which says that if we ever develop AIs that can think as fast and as well as humans then due to Moo…

"There are a whole lot of very different things called "The Singularity" "

If the singularity was a legitimate concept with anything approaching experimental evidence, then this could not be true. This observation of yours - with which I agree - suggests to me that The Singularity needs a pope hat.

It is instructive to notice that all of "the singularities" are the products of science fiction authors, and in the case of the original, a particularly bad one.

There is a delightful level of schadenfreude involved in observing the multiplicity of "The Singularities." In two different ways its name says "there's only one," and yet they still can't agree on topics that are critical and fundamental to the concept itself, like the definition of intelligence, or whether or not to circumcise.

Pass the sacramental chalice, please?

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#146
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> scotty79 means to showing a human only the 10 million 200x200 images Then, what kind of thing are you measuring? Recognizing patterns ? We know humans are very good at that. We can see thousands of different people everyday but we can recognize in the blink of an eye a familiar face. A computer or computer network is very, very, very far from being able to do that yet.

But why are humans are very good at that? Could it be because humans have gotten tons of high-resolution, 3D imagery with binaural audio? Whereas this computer got a handful of low-res still images. Is the solution to just throw more horsepower at the problem, or is there really some inherent quality of the brain that's different? edit: this quote puts things into perspective a bit "It is worth noting that our networ…

Also, consider training time. I doubt babies are recognizing 20k objects at 15% success rate after just a few days. Though to really compare that, the speed of the brain vs the speed of the supercomputer has to be normalized for, and training data and network size has to be similar as well of course for any real comparison.

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#147
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It does this for 20,000 different objects categories - this is getting close to matching human visual ability" No, it isn't. This classifier cannot identify theme variations, unknown rotations, will confuse new objects for objects it already knows, is unable to cope with camera distortion, needs fixed lighting, has no capacity for weather, does not work in the time you need to run away from a tiger, requires hundred…

I'm not a Machine Learning / AI expert, so I have to ask: if running a neural network on 16,000 cores with a training set of 10 million objects isn't cutting edge research -- and if running "far larger" networks than this, as you say you have, also isn't cutting edge research -- then please tell me: what is cutting edge research? I ask this question in all seriousness; I'd really like to know. (And yes, I see that yo…

I'm not a large scale ML person, and not intending to take away from the achievement of the team in the OP, but experiments in large scale, unsupervised learning have been going for a long time (even using the autoencoder approach). When you think about it, large scale requires unsupervised...

Here is an old example with hundreds of millions of records and instances:

http://aaaipress.org/Papers/KDD/1998/KDD98-028.pdf

Both authors are now with Google.

Also, people here may not be as up to speed on the state of the art in face rec as they think they are. It's not as much of an unsolved problem as it was even 10 years ago.

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#148
post #51

The only originality in this work is the processing power used. The principle in it self is not original. For a possible resemblance with the real cortical neural network working principle and face or object recognition, this is just a farce. Regarding getting closer to the presumed singularity, this is like saying that cutting flint is close to making diamonds. The authors didn't claim that, but the abusive use of "…

I think much of this is overhyped as well, but I disagree that whether modeling human brain structure is relevant. The term "neural network" has historical baggage (responsible for some of the hype), but these days refers to a class of mathematical approaches with only historical connection to "neurons". Those can be interesting on their own for AI purposes, and imo accurate modeling of the human brian, while interes…

My use of modeling was indeed inappropriate. What I meant is the working principle of cortical neural networks. The artificial model would then be a kind of proof of concept.

Regarding you other point, it is a matter of research strategy. I think that the path trying understanding the working principle of real cortical neural network is the shortest path to AI. My impression is that the other path which is to play around with artificial neural networks is too hazardous.

We can make a parallel with learning to fly. We are in a similar situation regarding how the brain works and AI. Understanding how birds fly require a true research. People seems to simply focus on flapping while this is not the real working principle of flight.

I see there a strong analogy with artificial neural network. The most relevant properties of cortical neural networks are ignored.

With flight the proof condition of mastering it was obvious. With AI, it is less obvious. I would be glad to hear suggestions. Face recognition is the most difficult condition because this process is the end product of many prior processes like 3D perception and feature extractions. My current impression is that talk decoding would be a much better candidate. Siri shows the potential impact of such AI product. At least the turing test would be a direct match.

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#149

Can we perhaps edit "singularity is near" out of the title? This sounds impressive, but having a bunch of racks able to classify the outline of a face is vastly disconnected from machine and humanity merging.

Agreed. My first reaction was "You're half a dozen zeroes short there chief".

Re: Building high-level features using large scale unsupervised learning

#150
post #88
post #33

People are missing the point here. Yes, 15% accuracy doesn't seem great. BUT the detector built its own categories(!). It managed to find 20,000 different categories of objects in Youtube videos, and one of these categories corresponded to human faces, and another to cats. Once the experimenters found the "face detection neuron" and used it to test faces THAT neuron managed 81.7% detection rate(!). Forget the singula…

You're in danger of missing the point too far in the other direction. The system just returns yes/no as to whether an image has a face in it, and if it was hard-coded to respond "no" it would score 64.8%. Obviously this is extremely impressive work, and given that Google gives away 1e9 core hours a year, I'd like to see how much further they can push this network (which only used 16e3x3x24 ~ 1e6 hours). But this isn'…

* The system just returns yes/no as to whether an image has a face in it, and if it was hard-coded to respond "no" it would score 64.8%.*

Yes, that is true. But ~80% correct is still a significant result.

I was hoping people would read beyond the 15% headline figure to understand exactly what than number meant.

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