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Why do you think people are poor?

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Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#251

Post by zithtar »

sparkie wrote: post #148

Because the system makes sure people stay poor. How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? Or how many of you were taught how to become "employable" so that you can earn the same amount of money and pay considerably more tax, unavoidably - because you aren't in control of your own fi…

I hate these "it's the system" arguments almost as much as I hate argument ignoring the systemic issues entirely.

It's clear that in your world view, a bunch of rich, white "fat men" (read: Republicans, according to you) are controlling everything from banks to schools to everything else. I feel sorry for you. The world is not the gigantic conspiracy you've created in your mind.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#252

Post by dedward »

atirip wrote: post #233
dedward wrote: post #178

I see lots of people blaming "the system" and whatnot for not teaching you to be rich..... and getting you into debt. And to be sure, the financial industry has been given too much rope to hand out credit without enough risk. But I seem to recall seeing many other forums about university, mortgages, etc, where people who's parents paid for their education, helped with a house, etc, are ridiculed - and I don't mean su…

"After 20 years of working you should be in a position where you could have no job for a year or more without screwing up your life." We call it - "Go fuck yourself, boss" money.

Call it whatever makes you happy I guess - but personally, as much as I might want to, I htink it's abad idea to burn bridges. "go fuck yourself boss" is the wrong mentality - if the place isn't for you, you just go, move on, and leave it in the past.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#253

Post by dedward »

atirip wrote: post #233
dedward wrote: post #178

I see lots of people blaming "the system" and whatnot for not teaching you to be rich..... and getting you into debt. And to be sure, the financial industry has been given too much rope to hand out credit without enough risk. But I seem to recall seeing many other forums about university, mortgages, etc, where people who's parents paid for their education, helped with a house, etc, are ridiculed - and I don't mean su…

"After 20 years of working you should be in a position where you could have no job for a year or more without screwing up your life." We call it - "Go fuck yourself, boss" money.

Call it whatever makes you happy I guess - but personally, as much as I might want to, I htink it's abad idea to burn bridges. "go fuck yourself boss" is the wrong mentality - if the place isn't for you, you just go, move on, and leave it in the past.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#254

Post by dedward »

atirip wrote: post #233
dedward wrote: post #178

I see lots of people blaming "the system" and whatnot for not teaching you to be rich..... and getting you into debt. And to be sure, the financial industry has been given too much rope to hand out credit without enough risk. But I seem to recall seeing many other forums about university, mortgages, etc, where people who's parents paid for their education, helped with a house, etc, are ridiculed - and I don't mean su…

"After 20 years of working you should be in a position where you could have no job for a year or more without screwing up your life." We call it - "Go fuck yourself, boss" money.

Call it whatever makes you happy I guess - but personally, as much as I might want to, I htink it's abad idea to burn bridges. "go fuck yourself boss" is the wrong mentality - if the place isn't for you, you just go, move on, and leave it in the past.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#255

Post by lupatus »

pron wrote: post #92
ams6110 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what your parents taught you about personal responsibility. My theory is it's less about whether you grow up in poverty as it is about growing up being taught you're a victim, that everything bad in your life is the result of other people hating you or taking what should be yours, etc. If you feel everything that you have or don't have is the result of things other people are giving you or taking from you…

That's very inspiring, but the reality is that many people are victims, and there are many who try to keep you down even if they don't know you exist. Society has a power structure, and those in power try to stay just where they are. One of the things working in their favor is that you , apparently, don't know who they are. The bottom line is that you can do a lot to better your fortune, and there might be some quite…

Society's power structure doesn't matter. If it did, pivots wouldn't work - ever.

Stop reading so much Occupy BS.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#256

Post by mindcrime »

astrodust wrote: post #250
mindcrime wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to be said for that. If somebody had really sat down and hammered me on the power of compound interest and taught me a little bit about the capital markets, when I was, say, 14 or so... I think I would have made a lot of decisions differently and would probably be better off today. Although, to be fair on this point, I'm not sure it would have helped, because I can't - in retrospect - say that my 14 yea…

Compound interest only works when the interest paid exceeds inflation. Your money is simply rotting otherwise and would be better invested in something that's appreciating at a more rapid rate. Maybe that's wine or stocks or a house. Your parent's generation had savings accounts that paid actual interest. Today you get a token 0.25% on a good day. With the prime rate being so low there's not much to be made by leavin…

Agreed. I only pointed out compound interest as an example of the kinds of tools that kids aren't really taught about (well, I wasn't, at least).

The thing is, I did actually pick up a book on stock investing as a teen... one more of my "library book sale" pick ups, but I skimmed through it, but the value of investing and taking advantage of the capital markets didn't "click" for me back then. Also, considering this was in the 80's, far before there was E-Trade or Sharebuilder or anything of that nature, the markets didn't seem very accessible to a poor kid growing up in rural NC.

At least that's one advantage we have today... something like Sharebuilder is a nice way to dip your toes in the water.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#257

Post by lupatus »

pron wrote: post #209
WalterBright wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a victim is a state of mind, not something that happens to you.

Nope, it's usually something done to you. Whether or not victims could overcome their actual victimhood through some intense effort on their part is a different question.

So, was Genghis Khan a victim or an oppressor?

Try reframing from an oppressor-victim category matrix to simply co-competitors because that is evolution's perspective.

Moreover, the oppressor-victim matrix provides competitive benefits to its promoters because it induces complacency in those who adopt it as correct.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#258

Post by ismarc »

vacri wrote: post #219
ismarc wrote: post #206

It's hard to write this, and my opinion is probably biased because of it, but this article is nothing but a giant load of horse shit and is a carefully constructed as "feel good" to reinforce the preconceived notions the author had going into it. A little bit of background; I grew up poor, people randomly leaving food on our doorstep poor, my parents giving the bike I had bought with my own earned money to my brother…

I don't think you're as much at odds with the author as you claim. What I read in the article was him trying to teach a different way of looking at things, a new angle, which is what I read you got out of your enlistment.

I'm not saying it didn't have a positive effect on the people who were able to participate. What I'm saying is that it showed a positive impact for a carefully chosen group of people who met a very narrowly defined set of characteristics. There's nothing in the way it was done that provides any specific insights into people at or below the poverty level, what keeps them there or what can be done to provide help improving their situation. All it served to do was to highlight that smart people in a bad situation want to learn and are improved for having learned, the same as smart people in a not-bad situation. I called it a "feel good" piece because the only meaningful conclusion it reaches (because the narrow selection constraints prevented it from being broadly applicable) is that poor people are people, too and look how great it is we helped some.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#259

Post by mindcrime »

joshkaufman wrote: post #171
tmzt wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe what we need is less of a udacity for coding and one for business, expressed in a way anybody can understand but not as rigid as a bschool or mba program? Reading the Thiel lectures for instance is very educational but without the basics how do you apply something like that?

That's what I do: http://personalmba.com . Business is not that difficult once you know the basics. The best place to start is my book: http://personalmba.com/book/ Hope you find it useful!

You're the guy behind PersonalMBA? Awesome, I have the book and I love the site. I haven't put as much time into it as I should, as I've been too busy with the nitty-gritty, day-to-day "stuff" of doing a startup.

I do fully intend to get through the Personal MBA stuff eventually; but right now, I'm spending more time with the stuff from Steve Blank, Eric Ries, Ash Maurya, etc. :-)

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#260

Post by lupatus »

kylebrown wrote: post #126
mindcrime wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument has never been that it is impossible to rise from poverty. The argument is that it is demonstrably massively unlikely. So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" I mean, if I can overcome all sorts of obstacles that are frequently cited as reasons people remain in poverty, and I am not anybody particularly special, then why shouldn't anybody else be able to? What separates a k…

> So the question then, as I see it, is "how do we make it more likely?" We'd have to change the structure of society. Its a class structure, and there's only so much room at the top. The wealth of the upper class comes from extracting rents from the lower class. This happens on a global scale (core countries exploiting the periphery) as well as a local scale (landlords with good credit collect more in rent than they…

Wrong.

If this were true, then when the colonists from "core" countries left a colonized area, then that area should have seen an increase in wealth because those rent monies would have remained in the colony. The history of numerous areas, such as Haiti, Kinshasa, and Zimbabwe say that this did not happen.

The wealth of the upper class comes from courage, determination, intelligence, organization, and productive use of time.

Furthermore, following your rule, Mark Zuckerberg, who is formerly a long time renter, should be less rich than his former landlords.

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