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Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

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Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#231
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. Thank you, this says what I have been struggling to describe. The day I lost part of my soul was when I asked a dev if I could give them feedback on a DB schema, they said yes, and then cut me off a few minutes in with, “yeah, I don’t really care [about X].” You don’t care? I’m telling y…

I’ve noticed this more and more since 2020. A lot of people who entered the field in the past 6 or so years are here for the money, obviously. Nothing wrong with that at all, but as someone with a long time programming and technology passion, it’s sad to see that change.

Maybe a lack of learned healthy shame from people joining the industry during the covid hiring spree.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#232
post #209
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re 26.08%: I immediately question any study (outside of physics etc) that provides two decimal places.

Why?

The assumption is that they almost certainly did not have the sample size to justify two decimal places. If they want two decimals for aesthetics over properly honoring significant figures then it calls the scientific rigor into question.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#233
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd also expand it to "languages/frameworks that I'll never properly learn". I'm not great at remembering specific quirks/pitfalls about secondary languages like e.g. what the specific quoting incantations are to write conditionals in Bash, so I rarely wrote bash scripts for automation in the past. Basically only if that was a common enough task to be worth the effort. Same for processing JSON with jq, or parsing wit…

While I’ll grant you that LLMs are in fact shockingly good with shell scripts, I also highly recommend shellcheck [0]. You can get it as a treesitter plugin for nvim, and I assume others, so it lints as you write. [0]: https://www.shellcheck.net/

I was just about to recommend the same, as well as shfmt and shunit, or even all 3 + a build system: https://www.pantsbuild.org/stable/docs/shell

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#234
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. PMs love them though. Bingo, this, so much this. Every dev i know who loves AI stuff was a dev that I had very little technical respect for pre AI. They got some stuff done but there was no craft or quality to it.

I’m a developer who loves using AI, and I’m confident that I was a capable developer producing high quality code long before I started using AI tools.

Hm… I think it’s fair to say that as a learning tool, when you are not familiar with the domain, coding assistants are the extremely valuable for everyone.

I wrote a kotlin idea plugin in a day; I’ve never used kotlin before and the jetbrains ui framework is a dogs breakfast of obscure edge cases.

I had no skills in this area, so I could happily lean into the assistance provided to get the job done. And it got done.

…but, I don’t use coding assistants day to day in languages I’m very familiar with: because they’re flat out bad compared to what I can do by hand, myself.

Even using Python, generated code is often subtly wrong and it takes more time to make sure it is correct than to do it by hand.

…now, I would assume that a professional kotlin developer would look at my plugin and go: that’s a heap of garbage, you won’t be able to upgrade that when a new version comes out (turns out, they’re right).

So, despite being a (I hope) competent programmer I have three observations:

1) the code I built worked, but was an unmaintainable mess.

2) it only took a day, so it doesn’t matter if I throw it away and build the next one from scratch.

3) There are extremely limited domains where that’s true, and I personally find myself leaning away from LLM anything where maintenance is a long term goal.

So, the point here is not that developers are good/bad:

It’s the LLM generated code is bad.

It is bad.

It is the sort of quick, rubbish prototyping code that often ends up in production…

…and then gets an expensive rewrite later, if it does the job.

The point is that if you’re in the latter phase of working on a project that is not throw away…

You know the saying.

Betty had a bit of bitter butter, so she mixed the bitter butter with the better butter.

But it made the better butter bitter.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#235

I wonder if the study includes the technical debt that more experienced developers had to tackle after the less experienced devs have contributed their AI-driven efforts. Because my personal experience has involved a lot of that in one of the companies listed in the study. Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. PMs love them th…

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. Thank you, this says what I have been struggling to describe. The day I lost part of my soul was when I asked a dev if I could give them feedback on a DB schema, they said yes, and then cut me off a few minutes in with, “yeah, I don’t really care [about X].” You don’t care? I’m telling y…

[deleted]

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#236

I sometimes wonder about whether the decline in IT worker quality is down to companies trying to force more and more roles onto each worker to reduce headcount. Developers, Operations, and Security used to be dedicated roles. Then we made DevOps and some businesses took that to mean they only needed 2/3 of the headcount, rather than integrating those teams. Then we made DevSecOps, and some businesses took that to mea…

[dead]

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#237
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary I think it's worth adding here that US developers can have a much higher burden for things like health insurance. My child broke his arm this year, and we hit our very high deductible. I would like to see numbers factoring in things like public transportation, health insurance, etc., because I personally feel like EU vs US developers are a lot closer…

I would also like to see those numbers. IMHO, the biggest difference comes from housing cost. For example, from my own back-of-the-envelope calculations, a £100k Oxbridge job affords a better lifestyle than a $180k NY job mostly because of housing. However, some US areas have competitively priced housing and jobs that would make the balance tilt in favor of America. In EU, affordable spots with lots of desirable loca…

what are typical Oxbridge jobs? Are they really in Oxford and Cambridge? if yes, then ... NYC vs not-London UK seems like almost incomparable.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#238
post #11

For me AI just brought back documentation. All new frameworks lack documentation big time. The last good one for me was a DOS book! I don't think newer developers even have an idea of what good documentation looks like. Even so, AI will propose different things at different times and you still need an experienced developer to make the call. In the end it replaces documentation and typing.

Every now and then there's a HN discussion "how do you manage internal documentation" where most commenters write something like "there's no point writing documentation because it quickly becomes outdated". (There were two such threads in just last days). Might explain why nothing is documented anymore.

Maybe that also explains why (approximately) nothing really works right.

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#239

I wonder if the study includes the technical debt that more experienced developers had to tackle after the less experienced devs have contributed their AI-driven efforts. Because my personal experience has involved a lot of that in one of the companies listed in the study. Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. PMs love them th…

[deleted]

Re: Effects of Gen AI on High Skilled Work: Experiments with Software Developers

#240
post #237
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also like to see those numbers. IMHO, the biggest difference comes from housing cost. For example, from my own back-of-the-envelope calculations, a £100k Oxbridge job affords a better lifestyle than a $180k NY job mostly because of housing. However, some US areas have competitively priced housing and jobs that would make the balance tilt in favor of America. In EU, affordable spots with lots of desirable loca…

what are typical Oxbridge jobs? Are they really in Oxford and Cambridge? if yes, then ... NYC vs not-London UK seems like almost incomparable.

Pharma and bio/tech startups in the area, mostly in Oxford and Cambridge Science Parks. So yes, local.

The pharma & biotech sector is blooming in the Golden Triangle, which also includes London.

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