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2M users but no money in the bank

exercism.org

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Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#201
post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Success should be measured in usage/reach, not $ What? No. If a business isn't able to sustain itself with its revenue, it has failed and will need to shut down. That's the definition of failure. Lots of things can be "successful" by your metric by using unsustainable pricing.

This entirely. You can't eat using "good feelings" / "impact" alone.

Yeah, you can’t deposit vibes at the bank, and employees can’t pay their mortgages with them either.

A sustainable business demands some kind of ongoing income.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#202

Congratulations on a very successful platform! (Success should be measured in usage/reach, not $). You've probably thought of this, but it might be easier to charge a very small amount -- say $1/month, which most people even students, could afford, rather than rely on donations. If you get 1% of users paying that, it's still $20K month which is more than you're getting now. (Of course managing the payments themselves…

How does it not "poison the mission" if it means 99% of users drop the platform?

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ah I see that might be a bit more tricky. I was wondering why the costs were so high. For example, I serve roughly 3 million users on a $40/month VPS. I only run Postgres + Django, if I use Supabase and all these other fancy cloud SaaS I wouldn't be able to sustain it as the costs would increase 10~20x fold.

(supabase ceo) our postgres offering costs roughly equivalent of RDS so if you use it with Django I don’t think you will come close to 20-40x a VPS, ymmv, depending on your workload We have an Auth service, but since you use Django you wouldn’t need it - sounds like you’d only need postgres (like a lot of our customers)

I don't think you get the point. RDS is expensive, just because you having pricing parity with it doesn't mean that you are going to be at the same pricing level as cheap hosting.

And thats fine, you have features on top that can be worth paying for certain customers and expenses of your own to pay. Those of us that have been around in this business for 30 years know how expensive PAAS and IAAS can be and how easy it is to roll your own solutions and when not to do that.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#204
Hello. Blog post author and Exercism co-founder here.

Thanks for all the comments, especially those kind supportive ones. I've replied to a few, but I thought it would making a couple of general points for context.

1. I feel something that's missed is that if Exercism just continues to help tens of thousands of people per month and has no-one working full-time on it in the future, that's not the end of the world. Our donations cover server costs (thank you, donors!) so there's not an existential threat. And our wonderful volunteers keep our content growing and up to date (we've added a dozen new languages already this year). For most of Exercism's existence, it has had no paid staff. Me and Erik having to become volunteers again is ok - it just means things will improve slower.

The blog post was written as an update to our community, and our community has been on this journey with me over the last few year. They've seen us go from zero money, to raising over $1M in donations and hiring people, to not having follow-up donations and having to let those people go. They have a lot of context that's maybe not seen by people new to the story. The post is sad, because Erik, who's well loved is leaving, and because the last couple of years haven't financially gone in the direction we'd have liked it to. But the post is not me complaining.

Exercism hasn't been financially successful during the last 18 months, but it's fulfilled the core part of its mission by helping hundreds of thousands of people. And it will continue to help people moving forward.

2. Our aim is to get people to learn a programming language and then to get on with their lives. It's actively not to monetise people. That's important, because it changes the model a little. We don't expect people to stick around month-after-month doing stuff (one person said that having 70k MAU is terrible - but you can also see it as totally expected - you sign up, learn, leave - that's the point). Which means having some recurring Premium offering doesn't massively work. Nearly all the people who donate are also contributors, power-learners (learning multiple languages), or people who feel aligned to a world where something like Exercism exists, and want to ensure it continues to do so.

So the only real end-user model is to charge an upfront fee for using Exercism, which actively goes against the mission and doesn't honour the commitment under which people have contributed.

3. To all the other monetisation ideas, thank you for them. I appreciate you all wanting to help. We've considered and experimented with lots of them over the years. We've not found one that fits well yet but maybe/hopefully that'll change in the future. I have areas I will continue to peruse and am hopeful about.

4. There are numerous threads on server costs, and while I appreciate the opinions there, saving some cost there wouldn't massively shift the needle. Our donations cover our server costs. Hiring good developers and other people costs a lot more money than the ~$3k/month we'd save. I'd also say that there's some general under-appreciation of the complexity of running student's code in 73 programming language sandboxes in real-time. Exercism is a lot more complex than a webserver/database model - we have over 400 GitHub repos. I'm certain some ops gurus would be able to do a better job at building a server infrastructure than I've done for less money, but the one I've built works with basically zero maintenance and not having to be on call 24/7/365 is something I need/value.

As I said in my blog post, I'm going to take a couple of weeks out now, and come back hopefully re-energised to keep building Exercism, and the new project alongside it, which hopefully will help keep Exercism funded. Thank you again for all the support, ideas and well-wishes.

---

Changelog: - Added "For most of Exercism's existence..." to the end of that paragraph.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#205
post #162

Congratulations on a very successful platform! (Success should be measured in usage/reach, not $). You've probably thought of this, but it might be easier to charge a very small amount -- say $1/month, which most people even students, could afford, rather than rely on donations. If you get 1% of users paying that, it's still $20K month which is more than you're getting now. (Of course managing the payments themselves…

> Success should be measured in usage/reach, not $ What? No. If a business isn't able to sustain itself with its revenue, it has failed and will need to shut down. That's the definition of failure. Lots of things can be "successful" by your metric by using unsustainable pricing.

From TFA, they’re not a business, they’re non-profit.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#206
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This entirely. You can't eat using "good feelings" / "impact" alone.

Not everything beneficial to the world has a viable business model. In the best case, you get to change the world and make a bunch of money. Sometimes, you just have a viable business selling sugar water. And other times, you're doing something really good that's just not going to get you paid. There's nothing wrong with the last thing, other than its potential lack of sustainability. I'm now a teacher; I could easil…

> And other times, you're doing something really good that's just not going to get you paid.

This. I feel that this has been missed in the thread a little.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not $90k/yr, it's something substantially less, because the fully loaded cost of an employee is much higher than their nominal salary.

I'm assuming you mean more ?

I just meant, you'd be paying these supposed engineers less than $90,000/yr.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#208
post #192

That's too bad. I used to contribute to Exercism a lot (I'm still technically a maintainer but haven't meaningfully helped in a while), I think it was the first OSS project I contributed a large amount of effort to. I was more or less the sole maintainer for C++ for a while and also helped with the C track. It's definitely a good service and OSS project, I recommend it a lot. Fundamentally though people don't want to…

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Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#209
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$7500/mo is less than half of one headcount --- if you could get all hosting for free . This is a sideshow. With these numbers, their viability is not determined by hosting costs. The problem here is that we all have opinions about hosting, but not so many useful opinions about business models, so hosting feedback is what this person is going to get.

$7500/mo easily hires two great 10 yr experience developers in most parts of the world.

I don't think this has much to do with what I said, and is rather a grievance comment about how much cheaper programmers are abroad from the US. But, if you really believe this, you should be outcompeting a lot of US tech companies with this strat.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#210
post #63
post #12

What does "I've lost faith in the nonprofit business model" mean? Non-profits have costs they pay. Many famously outlive their founders. Many, like co-ops or credit unions, don't depend on donations/endowments. They have revenue greater than expenses as a matter of basic accounting?

It sounds like his model was: "Make a non-profit org to do something useful for society, get funding from orgs that have money and want useful things done"; and it sounds like the problem he had was that orgs that want useful things done are often too specific. E.g., there are orgs to promote computer literacy among women; and among poor people in India; and among middle-schoolers in Africa, and so on. And he has use…

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