The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#811

Post by account42 » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 12:14 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #277

codedokode wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you buy a physical book, you have a right to lend it for free or re-sell it (first-sale doctrine). The publishers want to establish a precedent that you cannot do the same thing with digital books: the library must buy a special license and pay for every reading. So this is about stripping people from their rights regarding to books made with a new technology.

It's not the same thing. When you give a book to someone else, you lose a physical object and they gain one. To "give" an ebook to someone, you have to copy it. We have a whole body of law about when it's OK to copy things.

> When you give a book to someone else, you lose a physical object and they gain one.

But you don't lose your recollection of the book contents.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#812

Post by gigel82 » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 1:35 PM UTC

account42 wrote: post #795

gigel82 wrote: post #609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also have a personal gripe with the Wayback Machine; there is absolutely no way to get something removed once they archive it (despite the data including accidentally leaked PII for example - which can cause actual harm to someone). Not only do they ignore robots.txt, they ignored all emails sent to info@archive.org from the actual domain in question which I owned, with a link to a URL on the domain asking them to…

> It took me 2 years and working with a lawyer friend to draft a DMCA request to finally have them remove the content. It took you two years and a lawyer to literally fill out a form? If anything, the IA removes too much content and should only do the minimum required by law (and fight it even there where possible).

What form? There is no form.

I just sent emails into the void per their request for more than a year: https://help.archive.org/help/how-do-i-request-to-remove-som...

After nothing worked I had to draft an official legal letter, which also took several months to get acted on.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#813

Post by MrDrMcCoy » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 2:09 PM UTC

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #737

autoexec wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to stretch the meaning of "stealing" to include situations where no one is being deprived of their property we might just as easily say that text book publishers have been "stealing" from the pockets of students for decades with the insane prices they charge.

The creators put in labour with the intention that their efforts would be recouped in the form of remuneration. You stole their labour simply because you could in do it in a way that is not easily visible/detectable. Theft of labour is still theft to me, be it Amazon or parasites on creative works that are the results of the cumulations of years of an individuals learning and mental effort to create something. There…

When a creator's labor is recuperated yet they still seek payment via copyright due to the unreasonable length of time that is assigned, does the charging for further copies beyond manufacturing costs then count as theft?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#814

Post by p0w3n3d » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 3:56 PM UTC

immibis wrote: post #495

p0w3n3d wrote: post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Russia similar situation effectively is called an oligarchy. If you have money, you can count on law being on your side despite the case. If companies having a lot of money can change law to be on their side, this is the same. Becoming a martyr in US law system (precedential) does not make much sense in my honest opinion. Look at Disney Mickey Mouse casus - nothing will change in here

FWIW Steamboat Willie (the first appearance of Mickey Mouse) is no longer copyrighted.

I know, but the time it took was prolonged every few years

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#815

Post by MrDrMcCoy » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 4:48 PM UTC

kmeisthax wrote: post #778

vel0city wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with pretty much everything you said here. However, I'm kind of hoping my comment would draw out more on this idea. > Speaking purely in the realm of Law Let's argue this from the basis of expanding the ideas of copyright to something newer and better for this digital age. As mentioned, these days we're really just buying licenses. How do we better define property rights with this new(ish) concept of ownershi…

Good question. While I personally would not consider "suggesting copyright overall is now meaningless" to be a failure[0], there's no way in hell anything that might even remotely harm industry revenue would ever make it through Congress, European Parliament, and/or the Japanese Diet; much less survive challenges in the court or WTO. So the only reforms I can actually suggest are marginal things like this. Anyway. Fi…

I've always liked the idea of moving to compulsory licensing for patents so we can have things like day-1 generic drugs and an end to IP-squatting, so am definitely interested in further exploring similar mechanisms for copyright. What would it mean for the government to set prices? Works of similar classification may have a wide array of quality and utility, and thus suggest different pricing. Compulsory licensing for patents would not require government pricing, since they could instead mandate a percentage of profits be assigned to the pattentee.

I am skeptical of government bodies having the agility to appropriately respond to market needs in a timely and equitable fashion, since they've done such a bad job with the rules in every other area. This is not to say that it can't or shouldn't be done, but definitely deserves careful consideration. What mechanisms do you imagine might keep such a system functioning healthily?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#816

Post by Mindwipe » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 9:52 PM UTC

account42 wrote: post #782

Mindwipe wrote: post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is worth noting this is a US only oddity. In almost every other country in the world libraries do pay a royalty to lend books. It's notable that the IA service was not geofiltered to the US only.

AFAIK the IA does not operate outside the US. The notion that every entity needs to either follow foreign laws or make sure people from other jurisdictions cannot acces their services is absurd.

You don't like it, but that doesn't make it absurd. It is how every country in the world operates with sites coming into their borders.

The IA doesn't geofilter it's availability, and therefore it is subject to the laws of the country it does any substantive distribution to, same as every other website in the entire world.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#817

Post by brimwats » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 10:15 PM UTC

dannyobrien wrote: post #551

ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

I disagree with this assessment on many levels, but I think the most important challenge I can make is to the idea that Brewster Kahle is a rogue actor, who in some sense mis-interpreted the mission and strategy of the Internet Archive. For those of you who are just learning that name from this lawsuit, here's his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Kahle Kahle founded the Archive in the nineties,…

> Why didn't other people, other national archives, other commercial concerns or non-profits join in this work?

I'm very confused by this statement and I don't understand if it comes from you not working in library and information science, your definition of an archives or your opinion on what an acquisition policy should be, but lots of national archives have and continue to archive the Web.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#818

Post by pabs3 » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 6:14 AM UTC

dannyobrien wrote: post #551

ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

I disagree with this assessment on many levels, but I think the most important challenge I can make is to the idea that Brewster Kahle is a rogue actor, who in some sense mis-interpreted the mission and strategy of the Internet Archive. For those of you who are just learning that name from this lawsuit, here's his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Kahle Kahle founded the Archive in the nineties,…

Some more history from that era:

https://brendan-47137.medium.com/debunking-the-brewster-kahl...

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#819

Post by jessydiamondman » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 7:07 AM UTC

mekarpeles wrote: post #684

vesinisa wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto. Worth also noting is that IA lost the case by summary judgement. This usually means that the legal matter was so clear that the judge didn't even see a reason to start a trial. This judgement has now been confirmed on appeal. Just about any lawyer could have probably told them this was the inevitable outcome had they listened. I personally have donated previously to IA but now it frankly disgusts me that the p…

> it frankly disgusts me that the project's current management has for the last few years had its focus on fighting windmills in court instead of their core mission - preserving our digital history. Hi, Mek here (speaking as myself). Disclosure that I run OpenLibrary.org at the Internet Archive. I'm sad to hear you're disappointed with how things are going. I share your frustration. I wanted to join in and +1 one of…

I support the work the Internet Archive has done. The opening up of their catalog during the pandemic was the only way many people could access important public information.

I love computers, and so many aspects of the digital age. But one of my biggest concerns with this era is the impermanence of information. We have seen people trying to use this impermanence to rewrite the perception of history. This is not new (Tulsa Race Massacre), but the new systems break quicker than paper and cutting people off by expiring a license or DRM key is a lot easier than physically seizing every copy of a written work.

The transition to digital threatens to completely remove our ability to archive our culture as a public good, and puts that power solely in the hands of moneyed interests. So much human effort has been put into establishing and maintaining systems for free distribution of information. We are watching it being stripped away and selectively leased back to us, and once that process is complete, it will be much more difficult to get back to where we are now.

I am not a legal expert, and I have no special insight into how the legal process has gone or could have gone.

I personally want to thank the Internet Archive for fighting to preserve our rights. I appreciate The Internet Archive standing up and taking on this fight, and if there was a better way to do it then someone should have done it.

Fights for public rights over private interest will always be uphill battles full of road blocks, and take sustained effort. I am going to donate $100 towards The Archive's continued legal battles (both defensive and offensive).

Internet Archive Forever! I hope to catch you at one of the archive events.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#820

Post by Aeolun » Sat, Sep 07, 2024, 9:04 AM UTC

autoexec wrote: post #707

Aeolun wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think any book lent out by the archive would have turned into a sale? It just didn’t materially hurt anyone, and it made a lot of people happy. I think it was great, and while, sure, the battle was probably lost from the beginning, I like it when people challenge existing conventions. I’ve never stopped donating.

> It just didn’t materially hurt anyone, It took a lot of money control from the publishers and third party vendors libraries force people to use for digital lending. Those vendors can force users to create accounts, collect reading history and personal data, push ads, and sell lender's data to publishers and others. It also let publishers restrict what titles were available, remotely censor content, or remove titles…

I still don’t think that is true, because it assumes people that used the IA library would have used anything else (something that’s not their local library which is also free), and I just don’t think that is true.

I didn’t suddenly stop buying books on amazon when I could get them from the IA, the people who used it were the ones that could afford those books from Amazon in the first place.

Of course, me ‘thinking’ something is no guarantee, but I don’t have the numbers to say one way or another.