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Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

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Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#51
post #39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about the shift in Turkey's trade to the middle east. Turkey still exports something like 25% - 40% of its total exports to EU countries (not sure about exact % right now). If the EU imposed trade sanctions on Turkey, it would be hard to argue that there would be no effect. How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do? You think denying people the right to disagree with the…

There you go with the 'muslim countries' thing again. It's not like you can lump a whole load of different countries into one basket and make sweeping generalisations. "How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do?" - Very easily. The holocaust was over 65 years ago. The perpetrators of this egregious act are mostly dead. The victims of this egregious act are mostly dead. The modern Germ…

Regarding the subject of denying crimes against humanity, how is the Pakistani education about the mass murders in Bangladesh 40 years ago -- by Pakistani troops?

(Afaik, Pakistani students coming to western Europe haven't heard about them.)

>>Oh those poor oppressed Irish women, whatever became of them?

They got their freedom and human rights a little later than other countries in western Europe -- Ireland had a bit of a tough history, for a while. When does that freedom come to the Mid East and Pakistan?

Edit: "You can find X everywhere" is easy, for most any X. But it is often dishonest and lazy. E.g. rapes happens in prisons in most any country -- but a serious argument would note that it is totally different if it happens to 5% of the prison population or 0.1 promille. And if it is a "job bonus" for the guards, like Syria.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#52
post #30
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, isn't the USA kinda based on being anti-British? Wasn't there some war thingy where you chaps booted us out? We get on now, don't we?

The colonies were an ocean away during the age of sail. I imagine things would have turned out quite differently if Britain was on our southern border.

You don't even need to imagine!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812

Though I'm not sure whether this supports or refutes your point... because we did start to get along pretty swimmingly once it was all over.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#53
post #32

British Pakistani here. Schmidt has not seen Pakistan for what it really is - a cesspool of corruption and poorly educated people. Pakistan has two major problems. Primarily, education of the people ... what good is a democracy if people cannot understand the democratic system - nor see past the public visage and look deeply into what kind of person a political candidate is. This poor education leads Zardari (a corru…

Corruption is everywhere. Pakistan is hardly different. Even in the UK you'll find corrupt politicians or entrepreneurs. Perhaps they are less so (or simply better at it?) but this simply won't stop any time soon. Education is an issue but only in the long term. Assuming Pakistan managed to overcome several of its other problems, uneducated would become Pakistan's most important resource. Uneducated people are what m…

> Corruption is everywhere

Of course there is corruption everywhere, but in most countries it's nowhere near as endemic or systematic as it is in Pakistan (and India and China). I can get by in my life here in the UK without needing to bribe anyone, but bribery is a daily fact of my parents' life in India (and similarly for parts of the family in Pakistan). Deflecting this issue does you no credit.

> Countries full of educated people are more difficult to manage. . For example France is badly in need of deep reforms but they will simply never happen because French would go on strike as a result of such reforms

So, how would you explain strikes in Pakistan against reforms to the blasphemy laws?

> in France you'd get a 90 Euros fine for speeding on a standard road.

So what?

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#54
the rest of Pakistan for the average citizen, much larger than the first and which is reasonably misunderstood and relatively safe;

I'm not an expert on the topic, but if Karachi[1] can be regarded as "relatively safe", the Pakistan has bigger problems that I imagined.

[1] http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/30/karachi-ethnic-f...

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#55
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In turkey, you will be thrown in jail simply for dissent - http://www.npr.org/2012/01/26/145844105/for-turkish-journali... In Morocco, a court ordered a teenager to marry her rapist. She killed herself. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/03/moroccan-teenage... The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incid…

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

you're not woman or gay or an atheist i guess.

istanbul is to turkey what new york is to the usa - an outlier, nothing in common with the rest of the country.

i have a friend who was a human rights lawyer in turkey, defending kurdish dissidents - he lives in austria now, cause after being in jail, being tortured, etc he had enough. real, nasty torture, not loud music.

turkey is on its way back into islam, atatürk's laicistic idea of countryhood is being dismantled.

so, all in all, you have no fucking clue what you're posting about.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#56
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption is everywhere. Pakistan is hardly different. Even in the UK you'll find corrupt politicians or entrepreneurs. Perhaps they are less so (or simply better at it?) but this simply won't stop any time soon. Education is an issue but only in the long term. Assuming Pakistan managed to overcome several of its other problems, uneducated would become Pakistan's most important resource. Uneducated people are what m…

Im not talking about education as in, "can you perform open heart surgery?". Im talking about education as in, "can you write your name in Urdu?"

Why would Pakistanis want to be able to write their name in a Mojahir language? They could write it in English, Punjabi, Sindhi or Pushtun instead.

And you exaggerate as to how shit education is.

* According to the latest Pakistan Social and Living Standards Measurement (PSLM) Survey 2008‐09, the overall literacy rate (age 10 years and above) is 57% (69% for male and 45% for female) compared to 56% (69% for male and 44% for female) for 2007‐08. The data shows that literacy remains higher in urban areas (74%) than in rural areas (48%), and is more prevalent for men (69%) compared to women (45%). However, it is evident from the data that overall female literacy is rising over time, but progress is uneven across the provinces. When analyzed provincially, literacy rate in Punjab stood at (59 %), Sindh (59%), Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (50%) and Balochistan at (45%). The literacy rate of Sind and Khyber Pakhtunkhwa has improved considerably during 2007‐08 to 2008‐09 (Table 10.2)

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#57
post #44
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last time I wen't to Pakistan I was pretty happy with it and I'm not even a rich dude. Carefully check how the Muslim world works because it's quite similar to how the Western works: it's a bunch of different countries that share common interests and disagree on a lot of other things. Trying to make a story with three links pointing at different countries.. Try the same with Hungary, Spain and the USA. You will hardl…

I read another article about Pakistan, from a more-or-less US military perspective: http://strategypage.com/qnd/india/articles/20120622.aspx " The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-contro…

When reading such things, we should try to imagine what Pakistan is facing in its remote areas. The coalition forces messed things up in the area.

Why was Bin Laden was in Pakistan?

Several Pakistanis regions bordering Afghanistan live in a legally or de-facto quasi-autonomy. They are tribal by nature (be it their name or not) and since the war in Afghanistan started, they are facing deep changes in their power structure due to waves of migrants and militants. Such areas have also been steeply radicalising (remember the Swat war?).

So, if Pakistanis officials are trying to keep a sense of unity, and perhaps reinforce Pakistani feeling, by collaborating with what the West sees as terror networks, so be it.

They must ensure that these areas don't radicalise more and that it doesn't spread.

Now, the US is totally biased in the situation. It's literally been trying to dictate decisions to the Pakistani officials (military or political) for years.

> At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on.

I'm unsure whether this is a joke or not. It has to be a joke, right?

Regarding the freedom of speech, I'll ask you if you think it matters. Because if you think it matters there are a couple of things you might consider:

You could stop buying Japanese cars and hard-drives as Thai people end up in jail for expressing opinions that go against the monarchy (google lèse-majesté law in Thailand).

You could stop buying French cars and wine as migrants are put in "jails" and drugged against their will to keep them quiet and sometimes denied lawyers and assistance.

You could stop buying IT equipment because of the situation in China.

etc...

What I do know about Pakistan is that the government was deeply criticized for their handling of the floods in 2009. I also do know for reading from there that freedom of speech in the press is not a vain thing (being French, living in Thailand, I've actually found their critics very open).

I'm not very hopeful regarding the freedom of speech in general. In France nobody talks about those migrant centres that I called "jails" above. Nobody cares. In Thailand people think it's fine to have such a law (of course, except those who have something to say). I think there's a threshold under which a problem isn't a problem for enough people to reach a critical mass that could lead to a change.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#58
post #39
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right about the shift in Turkey's trade to the middle east. Turkey still exports something like 25% - 40% of its total exports to EU countries (not sure about exact % right now). If the EU imposed trade sanctions on Turkey, it would be hard to argue that there would be no effect. How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do? You think denying people the right to disagree with the…

There you go with the 'muslim countries' thing again. It's not like you can lump a whole load of different countries into one basket and make sweeping generalisations. "How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do?" - Very easily. The holocaust was over 65 years ago. The perpetrators of this egregious act are mostly dead. The victims of this egregious act are mostly dead. The modern Germ…

"Would it come as some surprise to you to know that in the early 20th century Irish women would wear headscarves to protect their modesty? Oh those poor oppressed Irish women, whatever became of them?"

They quit wearing them, it would seem. This puts them a century ahead.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#59
The emergent middle class of Pakistan won’t settle for a corrupt system with constant terrorism and will push for reforms in a burgeoning democracy. Here’s to the new civil society of Pakistan, who will use connectivity, information and the Internet, to drive a peaceful revolution that brings Pakistan up to its true potential.

Gosh, I sure hope so. Maybe Eric should talk to some of the Green Revolution folks.

I don't mean to be cynical, but the desires of the emerging middle class are going to have to compete -- perhaps with great violence -- with the desires of the established interests. That's what happens when political systems aren't able to auto-correct and run for many decades.

The question I would have like Schmidt to answer is this: is Pakistan a country? That is, does it control its borders, is the government the sole user of force against the population, is there a place where international partners can go and ask for and receive redress when wronged by citizens of Pakistan?

I don't think it is. Or if it is, it's a close call.

Having said all of that negative stuff, I wish the people living in Pakistan the best. An emerging middle class, along with a decent education and unfettered internet access, is their best shot at a happier tomorrow.

Re: Eric Schmidt's thoughts about Pakistan

#60
post #37
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked. Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the…

Please stop propaganda. There's no jail in France for the hidjab (or what this scarf is). It's a 150 euro fine. Not for wearing the hidjab, but for covering the face in public. Real jail time or corporal punishment is a different story, don't you agree? Let's say I had a few beers and took a leak on the street. Is there a difference between a few hundred bucks fine and having my weapon of crime chopped off? There's s…

Oh please, 600 years?! The difference is the modernisation. 150 years ago in Sweden we had blasphemy laws not much better than Pakistan today.

But sure, you might come from some civilised place. :-)

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