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2M users but no money in the bank

exercism.org

81–90 of 367 posts

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#81
post #10

How are they managing to spend 7.5k a month in server expenses? Are they using AWS?

We're paying ~$1k/month for all our webservers (which is a dozen ECS instances). They're handling about 3,000 requests per second (but that does sometimes massively spike to tens of thousands if not more).

We're paying ~$1k/month for all our tooling servers (so the 150 different test runners, representers, analyzers that are used to check peoples code. There's >=1 of those running every second). Bare in mind, we're running student's code in over 70 languages here. Each is a docker container (often many gb large) - so we pay for HDD too.

The biggest actual cost is the database at $2k/month. We have about 600 queries per second, and around 10MB per second (spiking to 47MB per second) of read throughput. It's an autoscaling database, but AWS determines that it's at the level it needs to be, and if I turn that down, performance suffers (I've tried).

Beyond that, all the other individual services are ~$300/m, so quite small amounts, but for things we rely on (e.g. caching servers, a shared filesystem amongst all those servers, and other things).

$1.2k on tax is also fun.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#82
post #21

I'm just thinking out loud here, but for 2 million users learning to code and improving their skills, there is a chance they want to change jobs or are already looking for one. Have you thought of adding a hiring feature? Where people upload their CVs, and companies search (anonymously) for talent? There is a hiring model called PPA (Pay Per Application), or monthly fees to search CVs. Your unique selling point would…

It's also worth pointing out the Exercism isn't for coding newbies - it's for developers learning new languages. This often gets missed.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#83
post #71
post #53

This is one of the saddest posts I've read in a long time. I love exercism. It's beautiful, works in the browser and from CLI. The lessons are really well designed. It's the perfect coding school environment. So, I'm sad it isn't viable. But, I think I am really saddened by the comments here, second guessing all the decisions they made. If I were to second guess the people behind most of the comments, I would assume…

Thank you for being so kind and supportive. I really appreciate your comment. I'm ok. I'm hopeful for the future. I believe there's lots of amazing stuff we can do and that Exercism has a great future. But right now it's in a hard, low place. The last few months have been pretty tough emotionally, but I think getting to this place is one of acceptance. The only direction now is up :)

I've gotten so much from your site. I'm sorry you have put so much in of yourself and haven't been able to make it work financially.

Would you email me (chris@extrastatic.com). I've got a few people I think would help depending on what direction you want to go in.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$50/month gets you a 12 core 24GB VPS with unlimited traffic on a 1Gbps link on Ionos. https://www.ionos.com/servers/vps $7500/month would get them 150 such servers. Maybe they should cut the AWS costs and hire their developer back. Id be really interested to hear the breakdown of their AWS bill. It would be a crime if they were blowing what money they have giving Amazon 9 cents per gigabyte egress.

If they are self-managing all the extras you get with a decent cloud setup (backups, node failover, load distribution and auto-scaling, multi-region or at least multi-DC for availability beyond single node failures, …), they are going to need an infrastructure person as well as that developer. Preferably two so the one isn't effectively on-call 24/7. And for that multi-DC for availability thing: you might need someon…

> they are going to need an infrastructure person

No.

I run multi-site Ceph+Nomad clusters with NixOS on Hetzner for our startup and maintaining those takes less than 5% of my time.

By using great tools and understanding them well you can do it with little manpower. I learned all those tools in around 3 months total -- so around as much as getting a basic understanding of AWS IAM ;-)

The only thing you don't get with that from your list is auto-scaling. But the with Hetzner the price difference vs AWS is 10x for storage, 20x for compute, and 10000x for traffic, so we just over-provision a little. And my 5% time /includes/ manual upscaling.

Yes, I am oncall 24/7 to manage that infra, but I'd be as well when using hosted cloud services. Yes, fixing a Ceph issue, or handling Hashicorp Consul not handling an out-of-disk situation correctly is more complicated than waiting for S3 go come back from its outage, but the savings are massive. Testing whether your backup restore works is something you need to do equally with hosted services.

So it is definitely possible to self-manage everything, for 5% of one engineer.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#85
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where the fuck are the VCs looking at serious hackers with millions of users who haven’t gotten the business model dialed in yet? Busy investing in AI?

These guys should "pivot to AI". Should be able to get a full B for an Ai company with 2 million users.

Fuck I’ll train a LLaMA tune for them on Saturday(s) gratis.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#86
Just donated a small amount. I think this is a nice service, and can think of a couple of friends who struggle with programming (professionally!) but are too embarrassed to ask and progress, and could make use of this service.

I hear the pain-points about the donation-driven model not rising to the task, but I do wonder how prominent that particular call to action is on the site. On one hand you don't want to bombard your users with annoying jimmy-wales-style boo-hoo donation banners. On the other hand you don't want your users to be completely oblivious to the fact that their favourite service is about to be shut down if everybody thinks that "it's ok, they probably have enough money / I wouldn't make a difference anyway".

Have you considered having a discreet yet prominent progress bar on the website, showing your monthly donation needs/goals? This could act as a good prompt for users to consider donating. One suggestion would be to accompany this by an information button, which when clicked takes you to a page explaining the different costs that need to be covered, where your money goes when you donate, and a detailed breakdown of what is currently still required / missing. Optics-wise, I would also try to find a way to differentiate between "large" donors and donation "trickles". E.g. you could color code on that progress bar different "tiers" of donation (or perhaps display this separately as a pie-chart in the breakdown information page). The point of this is to show to people who might be tempted to donate "small" amounts but are sitting on the fence because they don't think it'll make a difference, that it "can" actually make a cumulative difference, and push that kind of user past that threshold and donate "something".

Alternatively / additionally (you may do this already), if and when you see that a user has already extracted value from your service, such as, e.g., when they have submitted their 100th exercise, you could show a "congratulations" banner that says that you hope they're finding the service useful, and politely asks them if they could consider donating (oftentimes worded as "buy us a beer or two"). If they decide to donate, then after their donation, you could also have a tickbox at the bottom of this banner to ask in a respectful manner (i.e. not a dark-pattern-worded / confirmshaming one) if they would like to be reminded again after some time / number of exercises, or if they simply prefer to make a one-off donation and that's fine.

Finally, depending on your resources, if people "do" buy you a "beer", it would also be a nice touch to thank them for it, in an as personalised a manner as possible. Better yet, you could give them some sort of 'reward' / 'recognition' on the site; e.g. I think something silly such as revealing a hidden feature that allows a user to then tick a box to add a silly 'holding a beer' overlay to their avatar icon (in a similar way to how stackoverflow gives 'hats' close to christmas time), would actually go a long way to motivate people, after seeing these beer mugs on other people's avatars. And it's "silly" enough that people might donate to get this just for the fun and silliness of it.

The donation model is an odd one. Obviously, not everyone donates, but I think given some prompting and lack of friction in doing so, there's a significant number of people who would be inclined to donate out of a sense of gratitude, but who don't do so if they haven't been given a reasonable opportunity / visibility to do so, or some sort of confirmation that their donation doesn't just go to greedy shareholders on top of some sort of pre-existing dodgy revenue stream, but makes an actual difference to real people running the service.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#87
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where the fuck are the VCs looking at serious hackers with millions of users who haven’t gotten the business model dialed in yet? Busy investing in AI?

These guys should "pivot to AI". Should be able to get a full B for an Ai company with 2 million users.

So Exercism AI?

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#88
post #66
post #9

out of money, final payroll, no alternative but to go into zombie mode, yet for the last few months the co-founder has been working on his next product which will launch in 2025. maybe everything that could have been tried was tried but this comes off like some of the effort spent working on the next company could have been spent keeping this one alive

They said they will be using the proceeds from that for-profile company to pay for a team member's salary and keep Exercism running as much as they can. So this next company could be considered to be an effort to keep this old one alive!

It sucks being out of money and then you have to fend off the "why aren't you more dedicated" line of questioning when you had to find an alternative to keep the company alive

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#89
post #77

I just don't agree with this leetcode industry. That, recruiters and the whole tech hiring industry that has spun off from a process originally intended to get to know and gain confidence in a potential employee. It is just I have doubts in the educational help these platforms really deliver given that there are already so many resources to learn these days say compared to 20y ago.

We're not really part of the "leetcode industry". People have used Exercism to learn new programming languages for a decade. We've deliberately not wanted to become a place of competition or a recruitment space. We've always focused on helping people learn based on their intrinsic motivations.

Sorry you are right, what I posted isn't fair. I should have read more into it.

Re: 2M users but no money in the bank

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> which doesn't actually buy one a whole lot of servers/databases/bandwidth/monitoring/logs/etc. It buys you 150 machines for a month 12 core 24GB VPS with unlimited traffic on a 1Gbps link See my comment below.

And then you get to stand up your own databases, load balancers, monitoring, logging, etc. For which you need a development team with significant operations experience to do correctly - who will surely cost you more than $90k/year I get it, AWS looks expensive, but a bunch of their foundational services are real force-multipliers if you don't have the cash to build out entire operational teams.

>> if you don't have the cash to build out entire operational teams

Its just not true that AWS doesn't need expensive experts to get stuff done - it really does.

Anyone who is half decent on the command line in Linux can get all those servers installed and running without the spaghetti complexity of AWS.

The cloud as a magical place of simplicity and ease of use and infinite scalability in every direction - I think its the opposite of that - AWS is a nightmarish tangle of complexity and hard to configure, understand, relate and maintain systems.

Its MUCH easier just to load up a single powerful machine with everything you need. I'm not saying that works for all workloads but a single machine or a few machines can take you an awful long way.

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