Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#111

Post by shiroiushi » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:17 AM UTC

notepad0x90 wrote: post #27

BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers". Pay has motivated me to look for other jobs, but only after I was already worn out and frustrated with my current job. Switching jobs isn't like getting a new car or moving to a new apartment. It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleas…

>It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleasant.

That depends on your co-workers. It may be more like getting a divorce from an abusive spouse.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#112

Post by jauntywundrkind » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:17 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #83

jauntywundrkind wrote: post #60

With apologies, they are idiots. That they can't frelling figure out even remotely who is worthwhile to keep around or not is 300% on them, something so few orgs actually calibrate on, or do so based off awful anti-signals on, and it's embarrassing that this pathetic foolery has just gone on and on and on and on, with zero signs of improving. My boss loves me, swears I'm so full fo awesome knowledge & smarts. But eve…

Intelligence is not enough, one needs people skills as well. Dale Carnegie and Getting to Yes might help.

It helps a lot! But honestly I think it's a bad disease that we say it's up to everyman to market & grow acceptance for everything they try.

It should be up to organizarions to discern & navigate what their people say, to find good options collectively, collaboratively, & not based on crude lowest levels of popularity/acceptance. There's a tyrant of structureless that most companies blindly wander into, that lets things settle as they may, without trying at all to suss out what maybe perhaps possibly could be right. It's ought not be up to every practitioner to advocate for & battle alone, battle politically for right; orgs ought build in mechanisms of support. Failing that I think they deserve to die.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#113

Post by kyawzazaw » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:22 AM UTC

BadHumans wrote: post #65

simonw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered worst-case scenarios? An injury that prevents you from working, or something like cancer in the family, could be a whole lot easier to deal with if you have a sizable nest egg.

I have considered it and it is a legitimate concern to think about. I'm still fairly young and healthy and I have enough money to not work for years if it came down to it so you could call it hedging my bets but it is something that does lurk in the background as time passes. On an unrelated note, big fan of your work :)

for me, I like donating. So more money is great!

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#114

Post by emrah » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:25 AM UTC

BadHumans wrote: post #31

steelframe wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should try leaving a company for money sometime. Financial independence really is life-changing, and you can get there surprisingly quickly in the tech industry by putting yourself on the market more often. Anecdotally, at my current company nearly everyone I know who left did so within a few months of hitting the 4-year cliff on their signing equity. I've left 3 companies in my career primarily because the next…

I make low six figures in a low to medium cost of living area. I don't think even doubling my income would change my life too much.

I love it when people guess how changing or trying something new will affect them without doing it and never having done it.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#115

Post by aorloff » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:30 AM UTC

lainga wrote: post #80

gregfjohnson wrote: post #78

A person close to me works at a law firm. She was feeling a bit stagnant, so she connected with a recruiter. She got a very solid offer with a significant pay bump. She gave her two weeks' notice to her firm, including appointments with the partners. One of the partners asked her for a half hour. They came back with a massive pay raise, and a promotion to partner if she would stay. She was in a state of shock, but th…

What prevents engineering firms from acting like law firms?

The fact that (in theory) the computers are doing all the work.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#116

Post by somerandomqaguy » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:35 AM UTC

BadHumans wrote: post #9

This entire piece starts from the conclusion that engineers leave because they aren't paid enough then works backwards from there. This is wrong from my experience. Anecdotally, I have never left a job because of money. Sure, I left jobs and got ones that ended up paying more money but the reason I started looking in the first place wasn't money. It was for other reasons that usually included frustrations with manage…

Kind of depends. I live in Canada, most companies don't pay software related jobs like dev or SDET particularly well. When I left my QA / SDET position at 9 years of experience my salary was $52,000 Canadian a year.

To give you an idea, it would've been like living in Denver, Colorado on a $35,000 USD salary in 2020-ish or so.

Not every engineer is going to be making six figures. You just don't see those folks talking about it too much.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#117

Post by dataflow » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:35 AM UTC

notepad0x90 wrote: post #105

dataflow wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, that thinking is obviously wrong. Not everything is within your manager's power to fix. And people have different tolerances with how many headaches they put up with too. The manager might need much more time to improve things than their employee might tolerate.

Those are good points, but at the end of the day, people issues are management issues. It may not be your specific manager that is responsible but the management of the company and HR, who are responsible for the work environment that is set. I'd imagine it is a business (think money) decision on how much time and effort is put into cultivating a reasonably tolerable work environment. if employees have unreasonable d…

If by "people leave managers" they mean anyone in the chain up to and including the CEO, then I guess? That's hardly a meaningful statement though, it's practically a tautology... the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything the company does, so whatever reason you have for leaving is their responsibility... by definition. I can't say I find a tautology like that to be a particularly insightful observation, but maybe I'm missing something.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#118

Post by BurningFrog » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:37 AM UTC

nsxwolf wrote: post #109

BurningFrog wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economy has been objectively really great last few years. Many people say the economy is bad, whatever the measurable macro-economical state of the economy is.

If you find it almost impossible to get jobs I don’t know if it matters.

Your immediate situation is equally shitty, sure.

But if you realize the problem is not "the economy" (which you can't possibly affect), but something about you (which is the though you can affect the most), you have a chance to find a better path for yourself.

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#119

Post by desmosxxx » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:42 AM UTC

WrongAssumption wrote: post #67

maxlamb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right but what if you enjoy your job and don’t want to retire?

What if you stop liking your job?

This happened to me sometime between my first and second kids (last year or so). It was some mix of changing priorities, less time, starting to feel my age, work becoming more difficult, company cultural changes, etc. I think I've stuck a decent balance of saving and living, but man does life come at you fast. Went from happily working 60-80 hours (including some side projects) to struggling to work 40 hours. Reminds me of how one day something switched and I just couldn't drink anymore. Age is probably the biggest factor, and I can't imagine what this is going to be like in my 50s (just turned 40).

Re: Why Don't Tech Companies Pay Their Engineers to Stay?

#120

Post by YZF » Fri, Sep 06, 2024, 5:45 AM UTC

BurningFrog wrote: post #106

BadHumans wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make low six figures in a low to medium cost of living area. I don't think even doubling my income would change my life too much.

Doubling your income would mean you can take 50% of your time off with the same income. Pretty sure that would change your life!

It doesn't really work like that. The reality is that you can't work 50% of the time for half the salary (if that's what you mean). When you make more money you typically want a nicer place to live, maybe a nicer car, your standard of living will go up somewhat. Now to maintain that standard of living you're going to need to save more money.

Maybe you have kids and you want to be able to pay for their education, or buy them a place to live... Maybe you're helping your family.

Personally I could have "retired" a long while back if I wanted to have a lower standard of living and also take some risk. But I don't hate my work, I do things out of work as well, I prefer a nicer house and a nicer car, I'd probably be bored if I didn't work.