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Why do you think people are poor?

harpers.org

201–210 of 292 posts

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#201

Because the system makes sure people stay poor. How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? Or how many of you were taught how to become "employable" so that you can earn the same amount of money and pay considerably more tax, unavoidably - because you aren't in control of your own fi…

Do you really think the average business owner makes more as a business owner than they would as an employee? I don't have the statistics at my fingertips, but I'd find that surprising. I know I'd be making 3x-5x what I'm making now if I was working for other people.

Yeah, running a business means that you have a possibility of making a whole lot of money, and yeah, if you have the contacts to get investors to give you money in a situation where you get paid well if things go well and the company closes (with no fallthrough to you) if things go poorly, sure, you are doing pretty good; but that's not how most real businesses work.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#202
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only really discovered the advantages of creating my own business when I was around 23, I'm 25 now. I also got into a significant amount of debt in order to get a degree to make me more "employable" - and I'm still paying it back. I'm perhaps most irritated by this because I'm mostly self-taught (in computer science) and university did very little for me. I should've studied business instead, but probably like you…

why do you think business school would have helped you? From my experience with business people? those with degrees seem to be generally of less skill than those without. (maybe it's just that if you are good and have a business degree you are high enough I don't encounter you? Possible.) I don't see this correlation in computer science; I have no degree, but I certainly don't think less of people that work alongside…

Well, any school obviously helps you learn if you don't have a mentor or otherwise to help you sieve through the information. It's not like I can just walk into a library, go to the business/accounting section, and become an expert once I've read every book on the shelf. You need a way to manage what you're taking in, and courses help with that.

It doesn't need to be an academic course though, gaining the experience through work is good too, and I'm guessing that's what you meant about the "less skill" of graduates - their lack of actual experience.

Unfortunately for someone who didn't really know any accountant or business person until recently, I had no knowledge or confidence of getting my foot in the door, but if I'd studied the subject back in school, I would've been more competent earlier.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#203
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to. OK, this is just one anecdote, but... I grew up in a fairly rural, poor part of North Carolina, went to generic, poor to below average public schools, came from a dirt-poor family t…

I'm curious what your parents taught you about personal responsibility. My theory is it's less about whether you grow up in poverty as it is about growing up being taught you're a victim, that everything bad in your life is the result of other people hating you or taking what should be yours, etc. If you feel everything that you have or don't have is the result of things other people are giving you or taking from you…

Thats simplifying the matter down to a single key axis. Which is always an issue when dealing with the human condition.

You will be right within a certain subset of human lives, but for others - say a favela dweller in a Rio slum, or a taxi driver in dharavi - both of whom are motivated, willing to learn and doing everything they can to get ahead, their outcomes can be vastly different.

Heck I don't know if this has been covered on HN yet, but a few months ago 2 MBA grads decided to see if they could live on the poverty line decided by the Indian govt. Something like rs 28 a day - a about than $0.5 today.

They even went below the poverty line, at which point just being able to afford transport was impossible because they had to scrounge to maintain basic calorific intake. If they had to go beyond a certain KM radius, it was impossible because of the constraints they faced.

And these were guys who had to cut down their food intake, and when they did shower, they did so by cutting their soap in half iirc.

Their final comment was that if they had fallen sick during their below poverty line experiment, they would have had it because they would have had no recourse whatsoever.

Ah found the link - http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/living-like-the-ot...

http://www.timescrest.com/society/the-buck-swaps-here-6532

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15542957

Actually, they have a great website of their own with a lot of data which probably deserves a post of its own on HN, now that I've seen it.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#204
post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you think business school would have helped you? From my experience with business people? those with degrees seem to be generally of less skill than those without. (maybe it's just that if you are good and have a business degree you are high enough I don't encounter you? Possible.) I don't see this correlation in computer science; I have no degree, but I certainly don't think less of people that work alongside…

Well, any school obviously helps you learn if you don't have a mentor or otherwise to help you sieve through the information. It's not like I can just walk into a library, go to the business/accounting section, and become an expert once I've read every book on the shelf. You need a way to manage what you're taking in, and courses help with that. It doesn't need to be an academic course though, gaining the experience…

>Well, any school obviously helps you learn if you don't have a mentor or otherwise to help you sieve through the information.

I don't see how that's obvious at all.

I mean, I have a reasonable understanding of the creation side of business, and I can do straightforward sales; That side of things is easy enough to learn via trial and error.

Now, obviously, that's not /all/ there is to business, and maybe b-school teaches you about the bits I don't understand. But from a pure "you shall know him by his fruits" perspective, antidotialy, people with MBAs tend to be less successful (at sustainably growing the business... not at getting paid) than people without.

But yeah. as a small business that gives customers products or services in exchange for money? the most valuable thing you can learn is something about the product or the process that creates the product. The most valuable thing a small company has is the owner's labour. I mean, even with the ridiculous $150K/year salary numbers I hear friends throwing around these days... if I was working for someone else? I would have quit yesterday. (well, I would have gotten another job first, but... that has never been difficult for me.)

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#205

I see lots of people blaming "the system" and whatnot for not teaching you to be rich..... and getting you into debt. And to be sure, the financial industry has been given too much rope to hand out credit without enough risk. But I seem to recall seeing many other forums about university, mortgages, etc, where people who's parents paid for their education, helped with a house, etc, are ridiculed - and I don't mean su…

>It only takes a generation and some common thinking for a family to stick together and get ahead, and ensure their children never need to borrow money from a bank to get an education, or buy a house. You don't have to be rich... but why can't we live, you know, a generation ahead? I know a guy who told me his parents paid for all his stuff, his house, etc, and therefore all his work and all that (good tech guy) was…

I know a ton of people who were "working poor" either just post-WWII or as immigrants, who nonetheless have managed to acquire some pretty good sums of wealth. Most of them don't go as far as being "a generation ahead", but their hard work and sacrifices put their kids and grandkids in position to be successful without going through the sorts of financial dire straits that others treat as normal.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#206
It's hard to write this, and my opinion is probably biased because of it, but this article is nothing but a giant load of horse shit and is a carefully constructed as "feel good" to reinforce the preconceived notions the author had going into it. A little bit of background; I grew up poor, people randomly leaving food on our doorstep poor, my parents giving the bike I had bought with my own earned money to my brother for christmas poor, moving every couple of years because my dad would make a bad enough name for himself in an entire town/city that he couldn't get a job poor. I was rejected from his classes (I was actually living in Queens at the time) when they were first available. I may have been one of the two 16 year olds turned away, but I'm pretty sure I was older than that at the time, I may have been one of the people who was "too poor" to take the class. I distinctly remember being told that I "wasn't what they were looking for" and that they "wanted the classes to be as beneficial to all attendees as possible." So, given that, my opinions may be a bit biased.

What I learned, clawing myself to where I am (I currently make more than twice what both my parents combined ever made), is that independent of the person, you HAVE to get the out of the situation they are in. Being "poor" or below the poverty line, life is not what you would expect. There is nothing extra, there is not even enough to sustain yourself. Each month, you make decisions of what bills to pay (food, electricity, gas, rent) based on which is most likely to be shut off. You spend money you can't afford on things you don't "need" because you need just something, anything, to make it feel like you are actually alive and not just some "thing", only there to feed on the remains you can come across. Learning about the humanities doesn't change the fact that you're working a minimum wage job 3rd shift and rarely making it to your classes at high school (just often enough to keep from being expelled) just so you don't end up homeless. It doesn't change the fact that you try to cheat and go through the lunch line twice to get two free meals just so you can have something to eat that evening (breakfast? The programs that give kids breakfast ends at middle school).

I escaped from poverty because I am significantly above the average intelligence level and I managed to make the right decision at the right time. For a point of reference, not the last time I talked to my dad, but the time before that, he was letting me know he may not have a phone for a while because the lady's cell phone plan he was on had passed away almost a year ago, and now that it was up for renewal and she was dead, he likely would not be able to put it in his name. I was paying someone I knew $30 a month to sleep in a sleeping bag in their closet when I joined the Army (shipped out January of 2000). I blew the ASVAB out of the water and had my choice of MOSes with all sorts of bonuses as well. But none of that mattered. What mattered was that I was removed from the environment I was in. I was able to see how other people lived while being provided for and then having some extra money on top. When my enlistment was over, I moved on and have done great things and I am now in a wonderful place in life now. But I'm unique in that aspect. A large number of people I served with would not be able to once they were discharged and I hope most of them stay in, because it's a better life for them.

Just as having middle class or better contacts, friends, network and confidants can help you maintain or better your station, being poor and having poor contacts, friends, network and confidants will help you maintain or lose ground. If everyone you know is working for minimum wage, you don't ask where a good place to work is expecting good work, you're expecting somewhere that will actually give you full-time hours, or enough to barely sustain yourself.

Downvote me, rail against me, disagree, defend the article all you want to, but the article is full of as much hope and potential as the government programs that are available to help the poor go to college, all the way up to covering the entirety of their tuition. It sounds like such a great idea, but the reality is that fully covered tuition means jack shit when they are working 70-80 hours a week just to make rent and keep the lights on. It's feel-good drivel by people who never truly understood (and never will understand) what it's like to be at the poverty level or below.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#207
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something which can be acted upon, meaningfully. Knowing that a tidal wave is headed your way when you've got safe ground that's reachable, is actionable. You can take action to change the outcome. Knowing that, say, that within the next century the sun would go nova, or a local star would go supernova, for all practical intents, is not actionable in any manner that action could be taken which would preserve civiliza…

I know what the word actionable means. I don't know what he is asking about. Is my suggestion to read the book actionable? Yes, I think so. Is the info in the book actionable? Yes, I think so, on several fronts. But I don't know what action he wants me talking to him about.

What you say - if you think the info in the book is actionable, you could have answered my question with "yes".

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#208
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know that there is a gazillion of articles out there - we have the internet now! Why should I read this particular one, which from the outset seems to have a dubious hypothesis? Would liberal arts help some African child in a remote village? I am asking because I think I wouldn't last long in such an environment, despite of my capability to read...

Because it's good. It's well-written, thought-provoking, based on solid data and helps understand what truly motivates people who are in deep shit. While it has not been applied to African villages, they did replicate the experiment with disadvantaged ghetto-dwellers in Mexico. In the experiment described in the article, the ability to read was a prerequisite for the course, not the desired outcome. The desired outco…

I read about two pages of the article and there was nothing of the sort you describe, just anecdotes. Not even real anecdotes, more like atmosphere descriptions. Apparently it gets better, but I simply can not read every long winded opinion piece on the internet. If their message is important, they should aim for a more concise writing style.

The only indicator that it might be worthwhile to read is a couple of people here claiming it is important. But there are also people who claim reading the bible is important. I was simply asking for some convincing reasons to invest my time into reading that article.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#209
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very inspiring, but the reality is that many people are victims, and there are many who try to keep you down even if they don't know you exist. Society has a power structure, and those in power try to stay just where they are. One of the things working in their favor is that you , apparently, don't know who they are. The bottom line is that you can do a lot to better your fortune, and there might be some quite…

Being a victim is a state of mind, not something that happens to you.

Nope, it's usually something done to you.

Whether or not victims could overcome their actual victimhood through some intense effort on their part is a different question.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#210
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the solution is to make everyone a nurse or an engineer or a manager? Who's going to sweep the streets and grow food?

There is so much wrong with this statement and way of thinking that I don't even know where to start. I'm upvoting, because I don't want this comment to disappear, but it's still wrong-headed. 1. Answering the first quesiton directly: No, that's not the solution proposed by the article. The goal was to get the poor involved in politics, in the largest sense of the word. At the end, he reported that almost everyone in…

Whoa there. I merely questioned the notion that simply educating everyone will solve all of our problems. I was implying that there's a lot more to it than that. Look at the media industry, for example - we have developed technology which makes information freely accessible to everyone yet we have a considerable amount of resources being thrown at locking that down, which makes no sense in the grand scheme of things.

I agree that education is a must, but it's also about addressing the social structures we currently have in place and recognising that they will fight tooth and nail to keep things the way they currently are.

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