The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive • Hacker News Board

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#631

Post by mezzie2 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:17 PM UTC

leotravis10 wrote: post #319

pcaharrier wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shutting down IA altogether seems unlikely at this point (even if legal fees are substantial). They've written before about what the decision means (this appellate court affirmed what the district court did last year) and it doesn't touch things like the Wayback Machine: https://blog.archive.org/2023/08/17/what-the-hachette-v-inte...

Keep a close eye on the inevitable lawsuits that they're going to be up against. Obviously the music publishers are currently trying to kill the Great 78 Project and I expect other industries to pounce. (Especially the gaming and media industries). I can't see the Internet Archive exist in 2-5 years and we need to prepare for the worst case scenario. https://old.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/1bswhdj/if_the... Dis…

> Projects such as Anna's Archive are going to be much more critical than ever.

I look forward to all the new AA mirrors + contributions that are going to come from disgruntled archivists.

And everybody in the libraries/archives space going on downloading sprees. Most of us have personal illegal libraries. We just don't share them.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#632

Post by seanw444 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:17 PM UTC

jMyles wrote: post #353

We're getting closer and closer to a situation where some jurisdiction eschews so-called "intellectual property" altogether, and then houses essentially of the data on the internet. What will happen then? Will other states attempt some kind of embargo? This whole thing feels so childish. The age of owning ideas is over, and all these silly political and legal battles are a waste of the best minds and energies of our…

Embargoes are the least the US can do. If you're running something along the lines of a large-scale pirating operation, however lenient the interpretation, you'll end up like Kim Dotcom.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#633

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:20 PM UTC

71bw wrote: post #531

Y_Y wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point about the exclusion of sites that probably deserve to be in the Wayback Machine. Would you support a complementary archive that took snaps of the excluded websites? Does anyone know of one or want to set one up? (To be clear, it's not that I'm a big fan of Kiwifarms or anything, but Byuu's tragic story is enough for me to think that the site has significant cultural and historical value, regardl…

Archive.is has a donation page set up on buymeacoffee [1]. I prefer to use them over web.archive.org. >Would you support a complementary archive that took snaps of the excluded websites? Now that I have looked at it, I likely will. I never was one to donate my money to anybody (especially with no income...), but now being employed I believe it's only fair to give them a little bit here and there for them to keep aflo…

Unfortunately archive.is hides behind buttflare captchas and refuses to work at all in my Firefox install. That is not the kind of Internet I want to support.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#634

Post by mezzie2 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:21 PM UTC

mdp2021 wrote: post #515

9021007 wrote: post #326

[flagged]

> what the hell were they thinking Doing their duty?! The progress of civilization?!

Nothing preventing them from having good ideals and few brain cells. Which is where my opinion falls: I agree with their ideals but their tactics are bad. I don't want friendly soldiers marching into machine gun fire, personally.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#635

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:25 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #80

teruakohatu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In his many interviews with U.S. media, he portrays the court cases and legal judgements as a crusade against the Internet Archive and all librarians. It's not. It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being. If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. They hit and they missed. Claiming Brewster Kahle is…

The further you take a federal case the more precedent you create. The infinitesimal odds IA seemed to have at winning this case have to be weighed against the precedent they have created that may bind on future controlled digital lending cases with better facts. What IA did here wasn't costless.

If the precedent is that caving into DRM demands doesn't save you from greedy publishers then it's a good precedent to set. This interested in preservation and access to information are better off putting their efforts into skirting unjust and societally harmful laws than trying to work within them.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#636

Post by wayathr0w » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:27 PM UTC

tokai wrote: post #553

kuon wrote: post #540

Is there torrent of those books we can distribute?

That the dumbest thing about this. All these books are available at Library Genesis or Anna's Archive. There was no reason for IA to distribute illegally when others where doing it with much less risk. Way to risk your main mission with no up side.

This is nonsense. A great many of Internet Archive's in-house scanned books weren't previously available on shadow libraries; many of the Internet Archive scans have meaningful differences from the digital copies available elsewhere; & much of the shadow libraries' collections actually came to them from the Internet Archive. In the case of Anna's Archive specifically, they conducted a massive scrape of IA's library.

I think the legalist approach IA is taking was always doomed, but the enormous resources at their disposal allowed them to do a lot of collecting that other efforts have & will continue to benefit enormously from.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#637

Post by thayne » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:28 PM UTC

hiatus wrote: post #608

pk-protect-ai wrote: post #599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And now there will be a legal precedent to shut down all CDLs of these "lots of libraries".

As I understand it, libraries with CDL have purchased licenses for the works they allow to be checked out in this way and do not scan books and lend out their digital scans.

And those licenses expire, and are more expensive than physical books.

And of course, not every print book is available digitally, and not every ebook is available from the small number of vendors that license ebooks for borrowing to libraries.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#638

Post by miah_ » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:28 PM UTC

This is why I stockpile manuals and other guide books, and pirate as much as possible. The publishers don't really care about anything other than cash, even on media they haven't published or updated in decades. I will gladly buy self published and, small run media new, but everything else is used/second-hand. The abuse only stops when you set boundaries.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#639

Post by account42 » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:29 PM UTC

trustno2 wrote: post #556

ricardobeat wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whole copies of books, the form of copyrighted work most legible to the law, that are currently for sale in ebook form by their publishers For some reason this was acceptable in physical form for hundreds of years. CDL is just making it more convenient for our modern reality.

No it's not. Libraries don't make copies. They lend you the actual books. Copyright is literally right to copy. Scanning the book and doing something with, such as lending it forward, is copying. (The covid thing strengthens the case of the book guys - the CDL suddenly let anyone get anything because Archive decided to change the rules unilaterally)

The problem is that the act of sharing something digitally is implicitly assumed to be making a copy wheres lending someone a book you have already read and internalized is not. Copyright laws should have been adjusted to preserve the same freedoms for digital use as you had before rather than being even more of a bad deal for society.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#640

Post by ruszki » Thu, Sep 05, 2024, 2:33 PM UTC

EarlKing wrote: post #388

codedokode wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between lending a book in the library building and over the Internet from the library website? Lending over Internet is better because it saves the user from transportation cost, allows to read books at night etc.

THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT A COPY IS MADE. They broke the law. This isn't that hard to understand. If you don't like the law then either work to change it, create substitute works, or break the law in a way that doesn't involve dragging down the archive with you.

So we should just ignore what was the intention with that law, and stick to the written rules even when it’s stupid in some new environments. Great idea!

When you watch anything on Netflix, the movie is copied a few dozens of times at least, and even you make a few copies during watching it, but I don’t think that it’s legal to make a copy, I’m quite sure that it’s stated in their ToS. So the whole internet infrastructure, and computer manufacturer, and every user should be sued with this logic.