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Why do you think people are poor?

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Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#191

Post by sparkie »

rprasad wrote: post #188
sparkie wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps relevant: yesterday's news. ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18521468 ). Those are just few of the tax avoidance schemes that come to light - which it should be noted are not necessarily illegal. The reality is that the rich and famous are involved in these schemes - earning big money and paying less tax than hard working, honest men. The government doesn't take the necessary steps to put an end to the…

I suggest you read the article more carefully. The comedian in the article is being investigated for using a tax shelter to evade British taxes. If you read more about the K2 tax shelter, you will learn that British tax authorities consider it to be illegal (obviously, taxpayers using the K2 do not) and are launching enforcement actions.

The article doesn't say K2 is considered illegal, rather, it clearly states "legal, but aggressive." It does say the scheme is under investigation, but it's not declared illegal yet. The icebreaker one is.

My linking to the article wasn't just to point out these specific schemes, but more to just highlight the scope of tax avoidance/evasion. There are many loopholes that get abused, some get fixed, although not always in a timely manner.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#192

Post by sparkie »

rprasad wrote: post #187
sparkie wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm less naive than I was a few years ago since learning somewhat how the system works. 1) Perhaps you missed the part where I said IRS only applies to US? Tax rates do differ in different countries, if you weren't aware. That's one of the major tax avoidance methods - do what you can offshore, wherever you benefit by paying less. 2) Again, depends where you are. While all bonuses may not be tax free, they are usuall…

You have now suggested two forms of tax evasion: falsely allocating income to "dividends" and using offshore tax shelters. Please stop trying to give tax advice. Bonuses are income. They are taxed as ordinary income (or the equivalent of ordinary income in E.U. nations). Bonuses are not given lower rates; if anything, certain types of bonuses are subject to higher rates than ordinary income. Companies pay bonuses bec…

If you're taking my points as advice, you probably deserve to be screwed. I'm not trying to give it.

Falsely allocating dividends, using offshore tax accounts are what big companies are actively doing, and many getting away with it. And yes, these include your favorite tech companies and such. (http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/334737/20120429/apple-avoid-...)

The banking secrecy in some countries is the real enabler of tax evasion though - because corporations can simply fudge the numbers to reduce the tax bill.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#193

Post by kaonashi »

Mz wrote: post #94
drivebyacct2 wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment directly implies that some people are born predisposed to being poor on a genetic level, which is... absurd isn't even close to the right word.

Gee, I kind of hate to say this, but my expensive genetic disorder is why I am deeply in debt and homeless. It is not due to lack of intelligence, ineptitude, etc. It is simply expensive to treat. So I have difficulty with the idea that our genes in no way impact this outcome. I was STAR student, a national scholarship winner, etc ad nauseum. In fact, I am in financial trouble because I figured out how to get well wh…

By Social Darwinism, I'm referring to the idea that 'economic outcomes make right'. If you are poor or destitute, it is because you are inferior and you deserve your plight.

It is a monstrous ideology that has produced nothing but suffering.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#195

Post by Kliment »

Tichy wrote: post #43
emil0r wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One TL;DR would be that the liberal arts are very important. As such it follows that reading, words & meaning, as well as the pursuit of thought are very important. The conclusion is that you should read the article.

You know that there is a gazillion of articles out there - we have the internet now! Why should I read this particular one, which from the outset seems to have a dubious hypothesis? Would liberal arts help some African child in a remote village? I am asking because I think I wouldn't last long in such an environment, despite of my capability to read...

Because it's good. It's well-written, thought-provoking, based on solid data and helps understand what truly motivates people who are in deep shit. While it has not been applied to African villages, they did replicate the experiment with disadvantaged ghetto-dwellers in Mexico.

In the experiment described in the article, the ability to read was a prerequisite for the course, not the desired outcome. The desired outcome was to teach a method of reflection that goes beyond your first immediate reaction, and show people that thinking about what you do can be useful. The effects on the test population were continued education, employment, prevention of violence, and the confidence to demand better working conditions at the workplace. This for only a half-year's work and a cost of 2000USD per person. If you do not consider that valuable enough to read, what are you doing reading its comments?

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#196

Post by chipsy »

We became poor after deciding to adopt agriculture and systems of debt - previous to that, your wealth was momentary and related to your immediate friends, the seasons, and location, so the concept didn't really exist as we know it.

As civilization gained wealth, some people became rich, but they were only rich relative to everyone else's poverty. The wealthiest people of Rome had, in most respects, less than what someone on Western unemployment benefits may have now. They could do better on basics(which are important), but the technology of today was unfathomable.

But one of the technologies we haven't found is a way to escape the status differentials, complexities, and failures of our debt system; solving that problem is the key to solving poverty.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#197

Post by endgame12 »

rprasad wrote: post #187
sparkie wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm less naive than I was a few years ago since learning somewhat how the system works. 1) Perhaps you missed the part where I said IRS only applies to US? Tax rates do differ in different countries, if you weren't aware. That's one of the major tax avoidance methods - do what you can offshore, wherever you benefit by paying less. 2) Again, depends where you are. While all bonuses may not be tax free, they are usuall…

You have now suggested two forms of tax evasion: falsely allocating income to "dividends" and using offshore tax shelters. Please stop trying to give tax advice. Bonuses are income. They are taxed as ordinary income (or the equivalent of ordinary income in E.U. nations). Bonuses are not given lower rates; if anything, certain types of bonuses are subject to higher rates than ordinary income. Companies pay bonuses bec…

Distributing profit as dividends is not "falsely allocating income". The only issue is whether you have to pay yourself a reasonable salary or whether minimum wage is sufficient.

Almost everything you wrote is false. Not all bonuses are income, they may or may not be taxed, they may or may not be subject to higher taxation than ordinary income. You have a very US-centric view of the world.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#198

Post by WalterBright »

pron wrote: post #92
ams6110 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what your parents taught you about personal responsibility. My theory is it's less about whether you grow up in poverty as it is about growing up being taught you're a victim, that everything bad in your life is the result of other people hating you or taking what should be yours, etc. If you feel everything that you have or don't have is the result of things other people are giving you or taking from you…

That's very inspiring, but the reality is that many people are victims, and there are many who try to keep you down even if they don't know you exist. Society has a power structure, and those in power try to stay just where they are. One of the things working in their favor is that you , apparently, don't know who they are. The bottom line is that you can do a lot to better your fortune, and there might be some quite…

Being a victim is a state of mind, not something that happens to you.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#199

Post by lsc »

sparkie wrote: post #154
mindcrime wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot to be said for that. If somebody had really sat down and hammered me on the power of compound interest and taught me a little bit about the capital markets, when I was, say, 14 or so... I think I would have made a lot of decisions differently and would probably be better off today. Although, to be fair on this point, I'm not sure it would have helped, because I can't - in retrospect - say that my 14 yea…

I only really discovered the advantages of creating my own business when I was around 23, I'm 25 now. I also got into a significant amount of debt in order to get a degree to make me more "employable" - and I'm still paying it back. I'm perhaps most irritated by this because I'm mostly self-taught (in computer science) and university did very little for me. I should've studied business instead, but probably like you…

why do you think business school would have helped you?

From my experience with business people? those with degrees seem to be generally of less skill than those without. (maybe it's just that if you are good and have a business degree you are high enough I don't encounter you? Possible.)

I don't see this correlation in computer science; I have no degree, but I certainly don't think less of people that work alongside me that do have technical degrees. Usually (but not always) it's obvious that they learned something that I missed.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#200

Post by nl »

sparkie wrote: post #148

Because the system makes sure people stay poor. How many of you were taught in school that if you pay yourself a minimum wage and make up the rest as a dividend/bonus you can avoid paying a significant amount of tax (legally)? Or how many of you were taught how to become "employable" so that you can earn the same amount of money and pay considerably more tax, unavoidably - because you aren't in control of your own fi…

If you really think it is tax that is making people poor (ie, your number 1 & 2 suggestions) then you may wish to consider other factors.
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