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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#521

Post by kragen »

gavindean90 wrote: post #490
kragen wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no such thing as a 'home viewing license'; you don't know the basics of us copyright law, despite having negotiated public performance rights licenses. you need a license from the copyright holder (or a fair use defense) when, and only when, you are doing one of the things reserved to the copyright holder under 17 usc §106 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/106 . specifically, 17 usc §106(4) is publi…

The good part about it was that caused you to comment as well and the information you provided was very enlightening.

thanks :-)

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#522

Post by vesinisa »

rakoo wrote: post #494
vesinisa wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but this case was not about digital presevation but lending out scanned traditional books without proper controls, presented as some sort of a social welfare project. Choose your battles.

What's the point of having digital preservation if noone can read the archives ? Digital access make sense, it's the logical conclusion to what IA does

But that's not what this case was about. Throughout the trial they have been allowed to provide continued digital access to the scanned books, granted they operate like a library (each borrowed book is backed by a physical copy.) The case was launched when during the Covid-19 pandemic they removed the limitations under the veil of "National Emergency Library":

https://blog.archive.org/2020/03/30/internet-archive-respond...

This seemed already at the time completely counter-productive and unnecessary step as it basically forced the publishers to react because it made IA's digital lending indistinguishable from casual e-book piracy.

They have now created a legal precedent that, in addition to finding the "National Emergency Library" illegal, makes the controlled lending they implemented previously illegal. Ever since the district court ruling they have been able to continue digital lending only by negotiating compensation terms with the publishers.

So, instead of expanding everyone's access to the digital archives, they have managed to indefinitely limit it by creating a restricting legal precedent. This was the inevitable outcome of "National Emergency Library" and they knew or should have known it.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#523

Post by Y_Y »

ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

> It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being.

Who's this asshole who hates books and authors and the law?

Evidently, reasonable people differ in opinion on this topic. It's fine that you disagree with what Kahle has done, so do I, but I would have found your comment more persuasive and interesting if you didn't reduce your opposition to a caricature.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#524

Post by dannyobrien »

bigstrat2003 wrote: post #282
teruakohatu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In his many interviews with U.S. media, he portrays the court cases and legal judgements as a crusade against the Internet Archive and all librarians. It's not. It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being. If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. They hit and they missed. Claiming Brewster Kahle is…

I wouldn't have hailed them as a hero. While copyright law in the US is insane, what they were doing is equally wrong. I don't want either extreme to prevail.

i just want to clarify what you think would be so wrong with a service where you can find a book title, check out a scan of that book -- which has a corresponding physical copy in the real world, a one-to-one mapping to a physical book that is taken out of circulation -- and read it, while others cannot (because only one person can read that scan at a time), and then when you're finished, leave it for another person to read next.

And if that's wrong, is me lending a book to a friend wrong?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#525

Post by Dalewyn »

jrflowers wrote: post #486
Dalewyn wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do to find warez of all sorts is take a casual browse through their software library. Most of it is actually supplied by ordinary users unrelated to Internet Archive with little to no oversight or curation. I have no idea how effective reporting is, but I would bet it's not meaningful given the prevailing prevalence of warez. And yes, I've downloaded some of those warez and they have all worked. I wou…

Did you verify or report the link to what you claim is a working and playable copy of Super Mario Wonder for Nintendo Switch that you posted here as proof that IA “wantonly distributes warez”?

Here you go, 500GB of warez in just one link: https://archive.org/details/pcgames-jp

But wait, there's more!: https://archive.org/details/pcgames-jp-part2

And more!: https://archive.org/details/pcgames-jp-part3 and https://archive.org/details/pcgames-jp-part4

2TB of warez in just four links.

But that was way too easy, I just listed 2TB of mostly Japanese eroge. What about more mainstream stuff?

Presenting the PS1 release of Castlevania - Symphony of the Night, and in fact you can only play it on Internet Archive in the browser: https://archive.org/details/psx_sotn

And there's a lot more PS1 games where that came from: https://archive.org/details/psxgames

You can also enjoy a collection of Game Boy Advance games, nevermind that Nintendo is really draconian about ROMs right?: https://archive.org/details/gba_rpg_pack

But I've only linked to games so far, how about something proper adults would use? Here's Photoshop CS8 and it even comes with a keygen!: https://archive.org/details/photoshop-cs-8.

Actually, you know what? Just going through the latest uploads also proves my point: https://archive.org/search?query=mediatype:software&sort=-pu...

The moral of this digression is this: Internet Archive engages in wanton distribution of warez.

And once again a note to dang and friends: Not condoning piracy, these links are to prove a point.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#526

Post by mdp2021 »

forrestthewoods wrote: post #176
cmiles74 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

> this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out Even if that were the case I don’t think it’s acceptable. Physical used goods have limitations on transfer rate. If you want a used book you have to go to the store. Or have it shipped across the country. I adamantly oppose a global digital pool with instantaneous transfers. In that world you never nee…

Access to copies cannot be taken as negatively impacting sales. (On the contrary: access can reveal opportunities.)

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#527

Post by bubblethink »

tptacek wrote: post #80
teruakohatu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In his many interviews with U.S. media, he portrays the court cases and legal judgements as a crusade against the Internet Archive and all librarians. It's not. It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being. If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. They hit and they missed. Claiming Brewster Kahle is…

The further you take a federal case the more precedent you create. The infinitesimal odds IA seemed to have at winning this case have to be weighed against the precedent they have created that may bind on future controlled digital lending cases with better facts. What IA did here wasn't costless.

I don't think losing controlled digital lending is such a big loss. It was a clever workaround on shaky ground that only survived for the same reason that you stated - no one wants to create precedent. On principle, this was a shot worth taking. I can see a parallel with scihub, where they have actually brought about a cultural change in scientific publishing. Libraries aren't agreeing to closed publishing, ACM is going open access, etc.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#528

Post by Y_Y »

71bw wrote: post #481
vesinisa wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ditto. Worth also noting is that IA lost the case by summary judgement. This usually means that the legal matter was so clear that the judge didn't even see a reason to start a trial. This judgement has now been confirmed on appeal. Just about any lawyer could have probably told them this was the inevitable outcome had they listened. I personally have donated previously to IA but now it frankly disgusts me that the p…

>I personally have donated previously to IA but now it frankly disgusts me that the project's current management has for the last few years had its focus on fighting windmills in court instead of their core mission - preserving our digital history. I've never donated to them and figured it was the right choice after they started excluding websites from the WayBackMachine - the most vocal case being kiwifarms [1], whe…

You make a good point about the exclusion of sites that probably deserve to be in the Wayback Machine. Would you support a complementary archive that took snaps of the excluded websites?

Does anyone know of one or want to set one up?

(To be clear, it's not that I'm a big fan of Kiwifarms or anything, but Byuu's tragic story is enough for me to think that the site has significant cultural and historical value, regardless of its ethical orientation.)

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#529

Post by ricardo81 »

jandrese wrote: post #45

Very much not a surprise. I think the Internet Archive is providing an invaluable service to humanity in preserving works that would otherwise be lost to time. it is one of the crown jewels of the Internet, doing a job that nobody else is willing to do. But at the same time I know the courts side with publishers pretty much every time and copyright law being such as it is they're totally screwed. The only real questi…

Fully agree. With link rot being a huge problem, IA provides an invaluable frame of reference.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#530

Post by forrestthewoods »

rockskon wrote: post #498
forrestthewoods wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word “lending” doesn’t even make sense with digital goods. Nothing tangible is being lent or borrowed. Another perfect copy is being allowed to be made. Ironically it might not even be the same copy! Someone “borrowing” a digital good might download a copy of a new version or in a different language.

The idea is to impose the restrictions of physical goods onto the digital one. Your idea is to eliminate the very concept of a library where ebooks are concerned. You may want to rethink your argument.

> The idea is to impose the restrictions of physical goods onto the digital one.

You know how some people think rent control is a good idea but then every economist explain how it’s actually bad? That’s how I feel about “impose the restrictions of physical goods onto digital”. It’s a terrible idea that has terrible ramification if you follow things to their logical conclusion.

> Your idea is to eliminate the very concept of a library where ebooks are concerned.

Yeah that’s totally fine. The metaphor of an ebook library is bad and illogical.

If you wanted to write digital-first copyright laws you wouldn’t invent a faux library. There’s better solutions out there.

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