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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#421

Post by forrestthewoods »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #328
forrestthewoods wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly not the license that Internet Archive paid for! If we want media licenses to cost thousands of dollars so they can be loaned out digitally fine. That's something that can be fairly negotiated. What I oppose is a regular off the shelf purchase being used for unlimited, instantaneous digital rentals. That's disastrously terrible idea.

Then find a lawsuit that specifically goes against the instantaneous part, because a ruling that says "no lending at all" is just awful.

The word “lending” doesn’t even make sense with digital goods. Nothing tangible is being lent or borrowed. Another perfect copy is being allowed to be made. Ironically it might not even be the same copy! Someone “borrowing” a digital good might download a copy of a new version or in a different language.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#422

Post by EvanAnderson »

tpdly wrote: post #413
EvanAnderson wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone who doesn't know, though, SCOTUS ruled against Aereo, who subsequently closed-up shop, filed for Chapter 11, and eventually were sold to DirectTV. You can't "clever" around the intent of the law (or around a well-funded lobby). An O'Connor v. Oakhurst Dairy[0] are the exception, not the rule. (Aside: This is nothing at all like O'Connor v. Oakhurst Dairy-- I just can't resist the urge to cite it. It's too…

The trouble is that this all builds from case law established before people could use magic vision portals to exploit efficiencies of scale and centralization. That's not even addressing the magic of infinite copying-- lets suppose we all agree publishers deserve secondary markets be restricted to physical copies. Then the digital age gives us literal magic portals but the benefits are withheld from society because..…

> Then the digital age gives us literal magic portals but the benefits are withheld from society because... they want their money.

I'm so jaded about this now that I just assume things won't change until most of the people born before computers were "mainstream" die. Even then it'll probably take another generation or two for the cultural indoctrination associated with "intellectual property" to die out.

And no change will happen if general purpose computers (and the freedom they offer) are effectively removed from daily life. It seems to be going that way via normalization of walled gardens in the name of "security" and the infuriating argument that the computers everybody carries around (smartphones) somehow aren't actually computers and shouldn't allow for end user freedom.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#423

Post by bawolff »

teruakohatu wrote: post #72
ilamont wrote: post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

> In his many interviews with U.S. media, he portrays the court cases and legal judgements as a crusade against the Internet Archive and all librarians. It's not. It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being. If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. They hit and they missed. Claiming Brewster Kahle is…

The correct way is to change laws is to lobby your elected representitive. Blatently breaking them generally doesn't work. It can when the laws are morally repungent, but the majority of the population are never going to find copyright law repungant the same way society found, say segregation, repungent.

Copyright law may suck. The IA's actions were an extremely silly way to fight it, really didn't help anybody, and it was obvious from the get go that it wouldn't.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#424

Post by thaumasiotes »

tptacek wrote: post #418
thaumasiotes wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not setting a terrible precedent is actually the judge's job.

Not so much? The judge applied the law to the facts. I don't think this is an especially controversial case, legally.

If that's what you think, then the precedent is neither terrible nor interesting.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#426

Post by TrinaryWorksToo »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #407
codedokode wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say we have a device that allows to view book pages over Internet without persistently storing it in any tangible medium (like a memory card). I.e. without "fixing" it permanently where "fixing" is defined in 17 US Code 101. And we use it to view books from a remote server. In this case it seems like we are not making a "copy"; we simply let user watch book stored on our server. So this should be legal?

That hypothetical device does not exist, it's not relevant here.

A live camera feed and IA's page turner exists. Would live streaming the feed work?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#427

Post by radarsat1 »

What will this mean for other sites with similar programs? I know many libraries do similar "renting" of digital texts on their websites. I guess they will have to shut down these programs.

For instance, I know this is Canadian so different jurisdiction but here is an example of one: https://montreal.ca/en/services/digital-book-loans

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#428

Post by alexey-salmin »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #407
codedokode wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's say we have a device that allows to view book pages over Internet without persistently storing it in any tangible medium (like a memory card). I.e. without "fixing" it permanently where "fixing" is defined in 17 US Code 101. And we use it to view books from a remote server. In this case it seems like we are not making a "copy"; we simply let user watch book stored on our server. So this should be legal?

That hypothetical device does not exist, it's not relevant here.

It does exist, it's called FPV arm robot. Drive around the library, take books from shelves, open them, turn pages, read.

Would be curious to try this because the "ebooks don't wear" argument won't apply.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#429

Post by kiba »

tzs wrote: post #383
kiba wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question the assertion that copyright is necessary for compensating intellectual labor. For example, there will always be a need and demand for technical documentation, engineering, legal writing, etc, all of which will and must exists without copyright. A lawyer's product is specific to his client, and bridge engineers' output are a correctly designed bridge. You can extend it to musicians and artists. A musician…

So a musician who writes great original music that a large number of people want copies of so they can listen to it whenever they want should spend much of their time playing gigs and weddings instead of spending it writing more new music?

I didn't say anything about a musician should be doing X or Y.

I only question that copyright is necessary to make a living. A musician can teach people how to play music, for example.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#430

Post by tptacek »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #424
tptacek wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so much? The judge applied the law to the facts. I don't think this is an especially controversial case, legally.

If that's what you think, then the precedent is neither terrible nor interesting.

It's bad if you want people to be able to do 1:1 lending of digitized books. It's fine if you don't care. The point is that it didn't need to happen; there was no reason to appeal the case. It was a loser to begin with.
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