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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#391
post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply breaking them has close to zero probability of changing them Breaking laws and pushing to change them has been the modus operandi for some of tech’s biggest names. It’d be interesting to see how this might have played out if the IA had the resources that Uber, Airbnb, Google, Facebook, etc have at their disposal. It’s a sobering look at who actually has power to shape the legal landscape, and which direction…

Tech companies have large legal departments which find ways to skirt around existing laws. Where these companies break laws, they almost never challenge them. When they are prosecuted for breaking laws, they draw attention to orthogonal issues in court proceedings and hearings, delay the process, and involve a lot of other legal strategies. When they are sued by competitors for infringing on other's interests by brea…

> because it doesn't for Uber when they break laws

Every company I mentioned has broken laws, paid fines, and subsequently had laws changed in their favor.

I'm not saying it always works, but it works enough of the time that these companies accept it as a cost of doing business and have won. With that said, as pointed out in a different reply, copyright isn't one of the categories in which these companies are winning, so perhaps a questionable comparison by me in the original comment.

I agree this was a poor decision on IA's part, because they just don't have the horsepower to operate this way (not that I endorse this kind of behavior by businesses in the first place).

> These companies have the resources to shape the legal landscape, but not by breaking laws and getting prosecuted for it. That would show very poor decision-making.

Perhaps it's poor decision-making, but that's exactly what's been going on for years now. I suspect this is part of the reason numerous governments have been increasingly anti-tech in recent years.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#392
post #362
post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the fallacy of using the pathological case to argue against the normal case. Copyright is in need of reform but without it there is no intellectual labor, or at least no compensation for it. In the Information Age where everything else is increasingly automated, this eventually converges with all labor being uncompensated since all labor is eventually intellectual in nature if we are sufficiently advanced.

I question the assertion that copyright is necessary for compensating intellectual labor. For example, there will always be a need and demand for technical documentation, engineering, legal writing, etc, all of which will and must exists without copyright. A lawyer's product is specific to his client, and bridge engineers' output are a correctly designed bridge. You can extend it to musicians and artists. A musician…

The idea that copyright is necessary for this is ridiculous: copyright is necessary so that publishers and other middlemen can sell copies of their catalog, often with no more than a pittance to the artist. I’ve talked to a bunch of published authors who spent years of hard work on their books who receive no money at all, or an insignificant amount, from ongoing sales.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply breaking them has close to zero probability of changing them Breaking laws and pushing to change them has been the modus operandi for some of tech’s biggest names. It’d be interesting to see how this might have played out if the IA had the resources that Uber, Airbnb, Google, Facebook, etc have at their disposal. It’s a sobering look at who actually has power to shape the legal landscape, and which direction…

Big tech companies have gotten their asses handed to them in copyright cases in the past.

That's fair. Maybe a category error on my part to compare these given the victories by big tech are mostly in other areas.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#394

How do AI startups get away with copyright violations? To train AI model they need to download copyrighted works (images, videos, music) into their AI cloud, thus creating a "copy" under US Copyright law. Isn't this outright illegal? There are even datasets, collections of URLs like "common crawl". You cannot legally download them and use without breaking the law. They cannot get away with "fair use" because they are…

Because they are not distributing the work, which is how the law currently works. And in case you’re not aware, there are many lawsuits filed that suppose this exact claim: that models are not transformative and are thus breaking copyright law.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#395

How do AI startups get away with copyright violations? To train AI model they need to download copyrighted works (images, videos, music) into their AI cloud, thus creating a "copy" under US Copyright law. Isn't this outright illegal? There are even datasets, collections of URLs like "common crawl". You cannot legally download them and use without breaking the law. They cannot get away with "fair use" because they are…

This is still an open matter of law.

The core issue is the transformative test in fair use. Is the model sufficiently transformative?

The question of what, if any, impact OpenAI has on the copyright holder's income is yet to be demonstrated in court.

So far, the lawsuits launched by the authors haven't gotten very far. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2024/feb/14/two-openai-boo... https://casetext.com/case/tremblay-v-openai-inc-6

> However, the UCL claim does not lack factual allegations; it lacks a tenable legal theory. See Brown v. Van s Int'l Foods, Inc., No. 22-CV-00001-WHO, 2022 WL 1471454, at *6 (N.D. Cal. May 10, 2022) (“As the defect lies in the legal theory, not the factual allegations, the dismissal is without leave to amend.”). The Court dismisses the UCL claim without leave to amend as amendment would be futile.

> Tremblay v. OpenAI, Inc., 23-cv-03223-AMO, 5 (N.D. Cal. Jul. 30, 2024)

This is only partially dismissed - the unfair competition claim is still open and hasn't been ruled on and is still active and ongoing - https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67538258/tremblay-v-ope...

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#396
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The further you take a federal case the more precedent you create. The infinitesimal odds IA seemed to have at winning this case have to be weighed against the precedent they have created that may bind on future controlled digital lending cases with better facts. What IA did here wasn't costless.

> The further you take a federal case the more precedent you create. Not really. This put a huge chilling effect on real attempts at CDL, which IA was not.

That's what matwood is saying.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#397
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In his many interviews with U.S. media, he portrays the court cases and legal judgements as a crusade against the Internet Archive and all librarians. It's not. It's the logical outcome of one man's seemingly fanatical conviction against the law and the people who work very hard to bring new books into being. If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. They hit and they missed. Claiming Brewster Kahle is…

The further you take a federal case the more precedent you create. The infinitesimal odds IA seemed to have at winning this case have to be weighed against the precedent they have created that may bind on future controlled digital lending cases with better facts. What IA did here wasn't costless.

Fantastic point.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#398

I’ve purchased quite a few old books from online booksellers based on my browsing of them through IA so I hope, at least, there could be some way to still expose these old treasures to people so they could somehow acquire a printed copy of them.

Piracy is realistically the only option for books that are not printed but also not in the public domain.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#399

How do AI startups get away with copyright violations? To train AI model they need to download copyrighted works (images, videos, music) into their AI cloud, thus creating a "copy" under US Copyright law. Isn't this outright illegal? There are even datasets, collections of URLs like "common crawl". You cannot legally download them and use without breaking the law. They cannot get away with "fair use" because they are…

[flagged]

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#400
post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

It echos of the debacle at Mozilla. A critical nonprofit captured by an egomaniac ceo who hijacks the organization for grift or their personal crusade.
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