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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#351
post #52

This has been playing out for many years. And it's all because Brewster Kahle decided that an overly broad interpretation of the Internet Archive's mission trumped the rights of authors and publishers, and the laws of the United States. When IA was asked to stop CDL - many times - he continued. The National Writers Union tried to open a dialogue as early as 2010 but was ignored: The Internet Archive says it would rat…

Morally justified or not, it's really hard to feel bad for someone who stuck their dick in a bear trap when when we all stood there screaming "don't stick your dick in that bear trap" so loudly blood shot from our eye sockets. The Internet Archive doesn't deserve to go down like this, and regardless of his long history of fine efforts, it doesn't deserve to be run by that God damned idiot.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m getting a “no results found” response from that search. Maybe it has already been taken down?

Did you accidentally search in the Wayback Machine search box instead of in the Internet Archive search box below it? The former searches website snapshots, the latter searches books, films, audio, etc that is in the part of the Internet Archive that contains itemized data.

Woops. I am apparently an idiot!

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#353
We're getting closer and closer to a situation where some jurisdiction eschews so-called "intellectual property" altogether, and then houses essentially of the data on the internet.

What will happen then? Will other states attempt some kind of embargo?

This whole thing feels so childish. The age of owning ideas is over, and all these silly political and legal battles are a waste of the best minds and energies of our time.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure I follow. I can't think of any country where the CDL would've been clearly legal as is, to say nothing about its "emergency" version.

What are you referencing as not following? I'm not in discordance that CDL was likely illegal, simply in how they were making and sharing unauthorized electronic reproductions. At that point, it doesn't even matter how many people they allowed to borrow at one time. My comment on morality was in reference to how some people may argue that the internet archive was not in the moral wrong, but the law isn't based on any…

Ah sorry, I was referring to the comment about US copyright laws. I assumed you were implying that the US system was uniquely bad/broken/worse but on re reading it, that's just me badly interpreting what you said. Sorry about that!

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m getting a “no results found” response from that search. Maybe it has already been taken down?

Here ya go: https://archive.org/details/super-mario-bros.-wonder-nspe-sh... Note to dang and friends: Not condoning piracy or whatever, this is simply to prove a point that Internet Archive hosts and distributes warez with wanton abandon.

I’m kind of curious how this indicates “wanton abandon”

Have you downloaded and checked this file to make sure that it is a playable copy of Super Mario Wonder rather than some other file labeled as such? Have you reported it, and if so how long ago?

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#356
post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If IA had won, IA would be hailed as a cultural hero. You need a little bit more wisdom to change extremely entrenched laws. Simply breaking them has close to zero probability of changing them. This was evident from the start. IA already had some disputes with rights owners for some of the content they archived. They should have progressively resolved these disputes until some pattern emerged where either mass arch…

> Simply breaking them has close to zero probability of changing them Breaking laws and pushing to change them has been the modus operandi for some of tech’s biggest names. It’d be interesting to see how this might have played out if the IA had the resources that Uber, Airbnb, Google, Facebook, etc have at their disposal. It’s a sobering look at who actually has power to shape the legal landscape, and which direction…

Tech companies have large legal departments which find ways to skirt around existing laws. Where these companies break laws, they almost never challenge them.

When they are prosecuted for breaking laws, they draw attention to orthogonal issues in court proceedings and hearings, delay the process, and involve a lot of other legal strategies. When they are sued by competitors for infringing on other's interests by breaking laws, they counter-sue, often frivolously.

They also lobby.

Breaking laws and then arguing to change them when caught doesn't work and almost no one does it. The cost in money and time to get to higher courts, win (uncertain probability) and create a precedent with a legal department is 10x-1000x the cost of lobbying congress to pass a bill. The big tech corporate lawsuits that go to appeals are so expensive that one could probably straight up bribe influential politicians for less, should that be the path one wished to take. We know stories where people went to higher courts and won to create a precedent because these stories are heroic and rare.

If IA had the resources of Uber it wouldn't have worked out any differently, because it doesn't for Uber when they break laws. For example, around structuring employment as b2b contracting.

These companies have the resources to shape the legal landscape, but not by breaking laws and getting prosecuted for it. That would show very poor decision-making.

Maybe they can become martyrs and win the court of public opinion when their actions are seen as moral. But an org like IA can do much more good than just become a martyr, so this is a very poor decision.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can't "fail" it; the test simply doesn't apply to them. "Fair uses" governs the legitimate creation of unauthorized derived works. Lending a physical book does not create a derived work. (You're fine editing; I edited too, just for clarity).

You can still apply the elements of the test to them, and they fail every element. Let me try making my post a list of bullet points. * Libraries are allowed because technically it's not copying, and otherwise would be very illegal. Agree or disagree? * Controlled digital lending is only copying on a technical level, not in the traditional sense where more than one copy can be accessed simultaneously. Agree or disagr…

Copying has a specific definition under the law. Physical lending of books does not come close to meeting it. Applying any of the fair use tests to physical book lending thus does not make any sense. It's like applying the Central Hudson Test to my cooking of a grilled cheese sandwich: it's lawful, the government has minimal interest in regulating it, none of that matters because my sandwich isn't expressive.

If your whole point is that we could tear down all of copyright law and replace it with a system that allowed IA CDL, then, sure. We could do a lot of things. I'm not really here for that argument (because there just isn't enough to nerd out about in it, not because I have any problem with the exercise).

But as for the law as has existed in the United States for the last 50-odd years, I'm reminded of the words of a young Baltimore entrepreneur, who infamously said "you want it to be one way --- but it's the other way".

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still apply the elements of the test to them, and they fail every element. Let me try making my post a list of bullet points. * Libraries are allowed because technically it's not copying, and otherwise would be very illegal. Agree or disagree? * Controlled digital lending is only copying on a technical level, not in the traditional sense where more than one copy can be accessed simultaneously. Agree or disagr…

Copying has a specific definition under the law. Physical lending of books does not come close to meeting it. Applying any of the fair use tests to physical book lending thus does not make any sense. It's like applying the Central Hudson Test to my cooking of a grilled cheese sandwich: it's lawful, the government has minimal interest in regulating it, none of that matters because my sandwich isn't expressive. If your…

> If your whole point is that we could tear down all of copyright law and replace it

No, no, not at all.

In this situation I just want to change the definition of "copy" slightly.

(And to point out that slightly different definitions of terms would make libraries illegal. There's nothing special about the current definitions. In particular they're not the most straightforward definitions at all. Again, none of this is about radical change, just looking at where small tweaks would get us.)

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#360
post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruling discusses this starting on page 33. The gist is that they set up a non-transformative service that is substantially equivalent to competing ebook services and CDLs, but unlike those it is not paying the customary price to publishers. It also discusses that there is a very good reason why digital libraries don't typically get to have perpetual rights to a work at the retail (or used) price for a print book.…

IANAL but I don't think the work is legally a derivative any more than a JPEG of the Mona Lisa is. In US law those are the same for copyright. MS Word vs PDF shouldn't matter so neither should this.

The only way an ebook of a novel is not derivative in the same way a JPEG is not derivative of the Mona Lisa is if we are talking about the author's original handwritten version that just came up for auction

on edit: actually I also think that a JPEG of the Mona Lisa is derivative, but just noting that the value we ascribe to the Mona Lisa is something like the concept of Mana for art https://medium.com/luminasticity/art-as-a-tool-for-storing-m...

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