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The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

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Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah the posture and discussion on that is basically "we don't even need to go into the NEL because CDL as a whole isn't fair use." There are some limiting principles... the lower decision only covered books that were "in print" in eBook form... but the rationale here is quite broad and would easily stretch beyond these specifics. (There's a small amount of analysis related to whether the digitization involved in CDL…

So what I'm mad at is not that IA did CDL and imperilled thier other work -- it's that instead of doing CDL in a way most likely to result in a successful case if sued, they did it in a reckless not-C way that resulted in a bad case that ruined CDL, where maybe a better case with better facts would not have. In a more reasonable world we could imagine Congress might pass a law authorizing actual one-copy-per CDL by n…

Yes, the NEL period surely soured even more what was already going to be a hard case, and gave the publishers greater impetus to bring it, and blunted the negative PR they'd have gotten. I don't know that any CDL that was done on a significant enough scale to be worth the suit was ever going to survive, though.

I've thought since the beginning of this saga that a change in statute would pretty much be needed for CDL or something similar. The idea being to craft something that extends the philosophy or idea of libraries in the face of an increasingly digital world where doing much of anything requires a copy, things are licensed rather than sold, and the first sale doctrine has little application, but I agree with you that such an idea has dim prospects.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of the estates of dead authors trying to hold onto rights. Working authors were actively being harmed by the activities of the IA through the CDL. Working authors were met with refusals to meet to discuss this issue. I don't think that characterization of Kahle is unfair at all. His position was unreasonable, determined to be illegal, and damaging to people who depend on copyright to license their…

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

[deleted]

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#163

Crazy that this is not fair use but ai is.

Indeed! Although in the AI training case it's much more surreptitious. Everyone trains on them, the only story that I'm aware of is the one about the OpenAI books1 and books2 datasets used to train GPT3.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of the estates of dead authors trying to hold onto rights. Working authors were actively being harmed by the activities of the IA through the CDL. Working authors were met with refusals to meet to discuss this issue. I don't think that characterization of Kahle is unfair at all. His position was unreasonable, determined to be illegal, and damaging to people who depend on copyright to license their…

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

Maybe not the CDL, but the "national emergency library" that ignored the one-book-per-person limit definitely went too far.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that is a disaster. I'll have to read more, I hadn't realized that.

Yeah the posture and discussion on that is basically "we don't even need to go into the NEL because CDL as a whole isn't fair use." There are some limiting principles... the lower decision only covered books that were "in print" in eBook form... but the rationale here is quite broad and would easily stretch beyond these specifics. (There's a small amount of analysis related to whether the digitization involved in CDL…

> the lower decision only covered books that were "in print" in eBook form

This is actually a pretty significant limitation, because so much of what was practically available as CDL was actually out-of-print books that the publishers never bothered to make available for eBooks licensing. It's at least reasonable to expect that the fair-use analysis might tilt the other way for such books - the use is a bit more "transformative" because at least it technically contributes something that the publisher didn't, and the potential of market harm wrt. the copywritten work becomes a lot more speculative.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This wasn't a case of the estates of dead authors trying to hold onto rights. Working authors were actively being harmed by the activities of the IA through the CDL. Working authors were met with refusals to meet to discuss this issue. I don't think that characterization of Kahle is unfair at all. His position was unreasonable, determined to be illegal, and damaging to people who depend on copyright to license their…

How was the CDL hurting working authors? A library bought the book, paying the publisher and the author. The IA scanned the book for digital lending, this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out. I understand the court decided this wasn't okay. That aside, how was it hurting working authors?

From TFA:

> However, the Internet Archive expanded its library project during the covid-19 pandemic. It launched the National Emergency Library, allowing an unlimited number of people to access the same copies of ebooks. That’s when the publishers banded together to file the lawsuit, targeting both online libraries.

The digital copy could be checked out by many people at the same time.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#168

They should go for the route of letting people view webcam streams that look at physical book pages. Just need a camera per page or two.

Sounds like a similar concept to Aereo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aereo)

> Aereo leased each user an individual antenna and DVR situated in a remote warehouse that they could access over the Internet, allowing subscribers to view live broadcast television and to record the broadcasts for later viewing.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think people here are confused about how the law works. I think many people here feel the law shouldn't work that way. Stating it explicitly: while the NEL was dubious, CDL should have been 100% legal, and it's a massive disappointment to see it ruled against.

Maybe a case with a better fact pattern (for instance: lending only books without competing publisher epubs) might have had a better chance, but I think people are getting themselves tied up in knots about IA's intent, which is just one factor in a fair-use analysis. The law cares deeply about copies , not about circulation or access. Further: it seems weird to blame judges for applying what is in fact very straightf…

Fair use is not "very straightforward law", and is deliberately a fuzzy line; I do in fact think CDL should have passed a fair-use analysis. Separately I also think the law should improve.

Re: The Internet Archive has lost its appeal in Hachette vs. Internet Archive

#170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe a case with a better fact pattern (for instance: lending only books without competing publisher epubs) might have had a better chance, but I think people are getting themselves tied up in knots about IA's intent, which is just one factor in a fair-use analysis. The law cares deeply about copies , not about circulation or access. Further: it seems weird to blame judges for applying what is in fact very straightf…

Fair use is not "very straightforward law", and is deliberately a fuzzy line; I do in fact think CDL should have passed a fair-use analysis. Separately I also think the law should improve.

In which part of this case were the judges required to stretch at all? The decision is conveniently broken down across the 4-part fair use test.
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