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Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

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Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#71
post #59
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erm, when you take a cat of a bag, you ain't putting it back in without more than a few scratches to yourself. Usually this is described in relation to a secret or a hidden truth: when it's out, you can't kill the truth, you have to live with the release of the information.

What do you think "room to swing a cat" means then?

A quick Internet search tells me the expression predates the implement of violence, and as such is likely to refer to the swinging of an actual cat.

I have previously encountered references to swinging cats for entertainment or medical purposes, but not with credible sources.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#72
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not really the definition of 'loyalty' they're looking for though. "I'm great to work with as long as I get my way". People who want 'loyalty' are really looking for people who will stick around when things get tough - perhaps pay cuts, wage freezes, benefits reductions, longer work hours - etc. If you stay through those, without complaint, you're "loyal". Being "loyal" as long as "I'm treated fairly" isn't re…

Of course, I disagree - I call that being taken advantage of. If I could depend on the employers honoring the same thing - employing people "through thick and thin" - I'd believe it, but it's almost unheard of. Unfortunately, I worked for five years through "when things got tough" - random layoffs, no raises, decreasing benefits. How loyal does one have to be to satisfy your definition?

It's neverending.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#73
Here is the heart of the problem:

Peter Cappelli: Well, the employers, if you look at what the hiring managers are saying and what they’re looking for, they’re not, for the most part, hiring people out of college anyway or out of high school. What they want is three to five years’ experience. So the shortages that they report, the difficulty hiring, are for people who have quite specific skills, and those skills are work-experience based.

Workers without three to five years' experience will never get three to five years' experience. The only way for a young worker to be hired is through corruption, by knowing somebody or lying about their experience. The employers have designed a system to create the shortage that they complain about, and they perpetuate it because everybody's doing it that way.

In any workplace, the grunt workers should outnumber management. It is no different in software. For every software engineer there need to be testers, bug fixers, and doc writers. Yet in the want ads for programmers, it is the other way around. Senior this. Senior that.

The way to fix this situation is easy, but like anything else it will require time and effort. Next to the routine 3-5 year want ad, also post something like this:

Job title: Computer Programmer. Requirements: can program a computer. Compensation: $14/hr or DOE.

You will get plenty of applicants because the economy is that bad right now. Use interviews to determine the best fits for your company. Hire two or three for every Project Manager or Senior anything that you have. Give them raises if they are any good, treat them with respect, and they'll stick around. Three to five years later, you will not only have coders with three to five years of programming experience. The coders will have three to five years of domain knowledge of your company's operations. That might be just as valuable as their coding ability.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#74
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money is not the only motive for outsourcing things. Its one of the many reasons. I am from Bangalore, India. I also worked at a major Indian IT firm for more than 5 years. I can tell you many more parameters apart from money matter regarding outsourcing. I see this with even more clarity as I work for a product company that outsources work. Well executed outsourcing projects make life very easy for clients, that sta…

Perhaps. Or maybe you should come here and see how unwell most of the projects are? I think it's very easy for the engineers to think they did a good job while the end-users do not. The deals keep flowing because of the middle-men managers and consultants that agree on requirements and success metrics that are not good proxies for end-user productivity.

>>Perhaps. Or maybe you should come here and see how unwell most of the projects are?

I would love to, I like the American society a lot. Especially since we learned so much from America.

>>I think it's very easy for the engineers to think they did a good job while the end-users do not. The deals keep flowing because of the middle-men managers and consultants that agree on requirements and success metrics that are not good proxies for end-user productivity.

You can either take your competition seriously or continue to believe in whatever you believe. You Decide!

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#75
highs and lows balance.

humiltyy before honros; pride before a fall.

God says... C:\Text\WALDEN.TXT

and the bank; and, as a necessary part of the machinery, they kept a bell, a big gun, and a fire-engine, at convenient places; and the houses were so arranged as to make the most of mankind, in lanes and fronting one another, so that every traveller had to run the gauntlet, and every man, woman, and child might get a lick at him. Of course, those who were stationed nearest to the head of the line, where they could most see and be seen, and have the first blow at him, paid the highest prices for the

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#76
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps. Or maybe you should come here and see how unwell most of the projects are? I think it's very easy for the engineers to think they did a good job while the end-users do not. The deals keep flowing because of the middle-men managers and consultants that agree on requirements and success metrics that are not good proxies for end-user productivity.

>>Perhaps. Or maybe you should come here and see how unwell most of the projects are? I would love to, I like the American society a lot. Especially since we learned so much from America. >>I think it's very easy for the engineers to think they did a good job while the end-users do not. The deals keep flowing because of the middle-men managers and consultants that agree on requirements and success metrics that are no…

It's a standard problem for all engineers -- being forced to interact with managers instead of users.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#77

A significant issue is that nobody trains employees while compensating them fairly based on their aptitude. So the only option is for employees to bounce around to get new skills and better wages. Employers hate this and constantly complain about "employee loyalty", not recognizing that job hopping is the only real defense that an employee has to be fairly compensated. Here is a fictional account that illustrates the…

[deleted]

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#78
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe it's me, but the suggestion that someone is getting short changed because they're different, and that it's easier to justify short changing someone because they're different, implies that the problem is their difference, not the short-changing.

Are you suggesting we blame the victim?

Rereading the post you're responding to, out of context, I can see how you might get that impression. In fact, I was trying -- too subtly, it seems -- to point out that the ancestor post was making it seem that foreigners themselves are to blame for employers "cutting salaries, raises, and benefits," rather than the broken U.S. worker visa system. (I don't actually think that's what he actually believes, which is why I was trying to prod him into rephrasing, instead of downvoting him. I find people are too quick to downvote, don't you?)

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#79
Prisoner's Dilemma emerging with Employees and Employers being pit up against each other. Employers fear that training won't lead to added retention and employees don't trust the company to be around or take care of them if they stay.

Anyone know how to crack this trust game?

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#80
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems pretty myopic. Let's say I run a coffee shop. I sell $3 cups of coffee, which is the market rate, but can't get any customers. I have no signage, don't advertise, and I'm rude to customers. That's what a lot of companies are like - they don't treat recruitment as a core business, but as an annoying distraction (like doing taxes). The best way to get a job is to cold call companies, or network. It's like if…

If you run a coffee shop, you would be the buyer in the relationship as it relates to this discussion. A better analogy might that you surveyed Starbucks to find out how much they spend for their coffee beans. You then build the expectation that you should also be able to buy coffee beans for the same price as Starbucks. Of course, you can't, because you are small and don't buy enough beans to get Starbuck's volume p…

No, it's not about economies of scale. It's about non-monetary costs.

What I'm saying (using your analogy) is that Starbucks actually works hard to get good suppliers. If you open a coffeeshop and use beans from the local supermarket (hoping to pay market price - it's a market, right?, of course you pay a lot more and get worse quality than if you spend some time tracking down a good supplier.

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