Why do you think people are poor? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#31

Post by jiggy2011 » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 8:53 PM UTC

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

It's possible to go to an excellent school and fail to learn anything if you don't want to, especially if you have been culturally conditioned to hate school.

At least a good school does provide the opportunity, from stories I've heard from people who have worked at or attended bad schools it would be an environment where it would be basically impossible to learn anything even if you wanted to.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#32

Post by Mz » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 8:55 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #12

Could somebody do a TL;DR, please? I am interested, but I am not sure where the article gets to the point?

Real education is the path out of poverty. It always has been. Real education teaches people to think more effectively. Not everything called "education" fits that requirement. The poor are often subjected to training rather than education, which very often doesn't resolve anything. Training tends to reinforce the social trap they live in.

I suggest you not only read the article but also the book it is about. It is one of the more important books I have read.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#33

Post by anonymoushn » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 8:55 PM UTC

mbetter wrote: post #27

philwelch wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stylishness is not equivalent to truth.

In science, they are quite highly correlated.

This hasn't been true historically. Almost all of the times we have been confident that we understood something, we have been wrong.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#34

Post by grlthgn » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 8:56 PM UTC

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

umm.. no evolution does not encourage diversity. "encourage" implies that there is some sort of hierarchy or level in terms of evolution, and there isn't.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#35

Post by EthanHeilman » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 8:56 PM UTC

ramses wrote: post #22

planetguy wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This shouldn't be in the least bit controversial; it's well known that a great many human characteristics are extremely heritable, and it would be absolutely shocking if none of these characteristics turned out to be helpful or harmful in becoming rich or poor. But since you want sources, here we go: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21826061 "Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is high…

In academic circles it is not controversial at all. Outside of academia, people will always resist these facts. However, keep in mind that this is one part of the puzzle, and always explicitly note that when talking about this subject in public to minimize negative reactions.

It is extremely controversial in academic circles. Since you provide no citation let me provide one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bell_Curve#Criticisms

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#36

Post by grassclip » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:01 PM UTC

zzeroparticle wrote: post #25

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

I did find the lowering of barriers that would impede access to education like providing free meals, free transportation, and access to free babysitting to have been really helpful. In a way, it's like lowering the activation energy required to get motivated students into an environment where they can flourish.

I feel that the desire for an education is intrinsic. If you want to learn, you will (as evidenced by the study gms was talking about). Simply having access to all those goodies won't lead to motivation. Unmotivated students in that cushy environment would just lead to them being happier and more content, not make them work harder.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#37

Post by hackinthebochs » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:02 PM UTC

gms7777 wrote: post #11

I remember reading an article at one point about a study done on high school students. I can't remember exact details, but there was a program where students in areas with bad high schools could apply to be sent to better high schools. If I remember correctly, admission to the program wasn't merit based, but first-come, first-serve. The study compared the students who got into the program, and the students who applie…

>Those that want to learn, will learn.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. In fact, it seems like the study you mention supports the exact opposite. Those that wanted to learn (as evidenced by being first to apply) didn't show signs of being better able to learn given the same environment and resources. Wanting to learn isn't enough, but requires an environment in which to flourish.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#38

Post by jlgreco » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:04 PM UTC

kaonashi wrote: post #18

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

Social Darwinism, really? I thought that went out of style with eugenics.

Genetics don't have to be involved for traits to be passed on between generations. There is more to a phenotype than just the genotype.

It is not a stretch to think that natural selection could apply pressure to traits that are passed on through culture and exposure to ideas.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#39

Post by hackinthebochs » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:07 PM UTC

grlthgn wrote: post #34

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

umm.. no evolution does not encourage diversity. "encourage" implies that there is some sort of hierarchy or level in terms of evolution, and there isn't.

These sorts of points are silly, and wrong. If the general tendency of life under evolutionary processes is "diversity", through whatever natural processes are at play, then its reasonable to say in common language that "evolution encourages diversity".

Personally, I disagree that evolution encourages diversity. It seems to me that diversity occurs in spite of it, as a result of our ever changing, dynamic, earth.

Re: Why do you think people are poor?

#40

Post by codex » Thu, Jun 21, 2012, 9:10 PM UTC

tokenadult wrote: post #23

codex wrote: post #13

Evolution encourages diversity. At any given point in time and place, some people are better adapted than others. The least adapted make up at least some of the poor. By this relative definition, some poor will always be with us, even though their standard of living is rising continually.

Evolution encourages diversity. That's quite a general statement for the discussion here, which you then use to make a specific conclusion about the human behavioral issue under discussion in this thread. Could you kindly fill out the reasoning steps you are implicitly following with more citations to research on each factual assertion you are relying on? even though their standard of living is rising continually Thi…

It's pretty simple: Humans are diverse. Evolution created humans. Therefore, evolution created human diversity. "Encourages" is perhaps the wrong word--evolution really produces diversity because it responds to the diverse conditions of the earth.

However, this is just background color, it doesn't change the argument. As long as humans are generically and epigenetically diverse there will be differences in fitness. In capitalist societies it makes people more or less wealthy; in other societies it makes them more or less powerful, or influential, or with more or less social status. There are other factors that can make someone poor but this one seems impossoble to completely remedy.