Mondragon as the new city-state • Hacker News Board

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#21

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 8:53 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #8

A thing that is kind of glossed over is: what is "ownership" when we talk about worker-owners at cooperatives? > The profits generated by each cooperative are put to work for the benefit of the greater whole. Each cooperative gives 14-40% of their gross profits to their division (depending on the division), and another 14% to their parent company. The rest are invested back in the cooperative (60% of net profits), di…

Not all that different from shares in a private company, or an interest in a partnership or multi-member LLC. Many corporate shareholders cannot freely sell; the idea of being able to sell stock for cash whenever you want to is unique to public companies.

And yes, the real problem is information asymmetry. This is always the real problem. Arguably the secretary who knows everything that's going on with the company via watercooler talk has more power than the CEO whose underlings tell him only what he wants to hear. A lot of corporate owners, even powerful shareholders like the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia, have been bilked by unscrupulous but savvy management who knows how to control information flow.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#22

Post by aegypti » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 8:55 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #4

There is no value without labor. This was recognized by everyone from Karl Marx to Abraham Lincoln to Adam Smith. Smith even conceded that profit was impossible if workers retain their surplus value, which is exactly the point. I bring this up because that's what capitalism is: draining the surplus labor value from workers to the capital-owning class. In feudalism, the artistocracy and th emonarchy extracted that val…

How much labor were they putting into those 1960s California starter homes!?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#23

Post by crooked-v » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 8:58 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #4

There is no value without labor. This was recognized by everyone from Karl Marx to Abraham Lincoln to Adam Smith. Smith even conceded that profit was impossible if workers retain their surplus value, which is exactly the point. I bring this up because that's what capitalism is: draining the surplus labor value from workers to the capital-owning class. In feudalism, the artistocracy and th emonarchy extracted that val…

> In feudalism, the artistocracy and th emonarchy extracted that value.

Feudalism was in some ways a bit kinder, because part of the basic arrangement was the expectation that the nobles would protect the peasantry (for pragmatic that's-where-the-food-and-supplies-come-from reasons, not ethical ones). Capitalism has no such expectations or incentives.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#24

Post by ladyanita22 » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 8:58 PM UTC

user-one1 wrote: post #11

ladyanita22 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's located in Spain, a country not known for its vast wealth. Plus, it's in a special administrative region in Spain, the Basque Country. They enjoy subsidies and favorable treatment from the regional government.

Basque country is one of the richest regions in Spain, which is already a highly developed country. Not sure what you are talking about.

I'm from Spain, so I'm quite sure of what I'm talking about. Spain might be a highly developed country, but its gdp per capita is not too high compared to the likes of Germany, UK, France, Denmark, US, et al.

Basque country is, again, rich because it has an special tax treatment and could be considered a tax heaven to some extent.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#25

Post by abeppu » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 8:58 PM UTC

sgu999 wrote: post #18

abeppu wrote: post #8

A thing that is kind of glossed over is: what is "ownership" when we talk about worker-owners at cooperatives? > The profits generated by each cooperative are put to work for the benefit of the greater whole. Each cooperative gives 14-40% of their gross profits to their division (depending on the division), and another 14% to their parent company. The rest are invested back in the cooperative (60% of net profits), di…

> In some sense, corporate employees that get some form of equity as part of their compensation are more literally worker-owners. As soon as a worker leaves or sells their shares, these shares aren't worker-owned anymore and the interests of their owner can quickly diverge from the ones of a worker. That's roughly what a coop fixes I think.

I can kinda see how one can argue that this is a feature rather than a bug, but I still think this points to the more distinctive feature in these coops being democratic governance of workers rather than ownership.

I own shares of past companies I've worked at, but I don't have any representation in how the company is run. It doesn't matter if my interests have diverged from current workers, because I have no influence.

If a company compensates its employees partially with RSUs, and those employees own and can eventually transfer those shares freely, and the company was also democratically governed by its workers ... could you not have "real" ownership (by current and past workers) and still protect current workers' democratic governance?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#26

Post by howard941 » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 9:04 PM UTC

abeppu wrote: post #8

A thing that is kind of glossed over is: what is "ownership" when we talk about worker-owners at cooperatives? > The profits generated by each cooperative are put to work for the benefit of the greater whole. Each cooperative gives 14-40% of their gross profits to their division (depending on the division), and another 14% to their parent company. The rest are invested back in the cooperative (60% of net profits), di…

When they leave or retire how are the earnings taxed?

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#27

Post by sgu999 » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 9:05 PM UTC

RHSeeger wrote: post #16

jmyeet wrote: post #4

There is no value without labor. This was recognized by everyone from Karl Marx to Abraham Lincoln to Adam Smith. Smith even conceded that profit was impossible if workers retain their surplus value, which is exactly the point. I bring this up because that's what capitalism is: draining the surplus labor value from workers to the capital-owning class. In feudalism, the artistocracy and th emonarchy extracted that val…

> There is no value without labor. While this is generally true, it's also not the entire equation. For example, there's no gain without risk. - When I work for someone else, I am offloading some of the risk to that person/owner. When someone starts a company and hires other people... if the company goes belly up, the founder loses their investment; the workers find another job. - When I rent from someone else, I am…

> the founder loses their investment

So does the bank, and the state that (more often than not) subsidised said investment through diverse vehicles. If the bank goes belly up, we've seen what happens, we collectively contribute to save them... because we're collectively sharing all the risk of investment in our financialized economies.

I agree that some people don't want risk and others do, but as soon as you start sharing ownership that dichotomy simply disappears.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#28

Post by devman0 » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 9:09 PM UTC

metabagel wrote: post #12

abeppu wrote: post #8

A thing that is kind of glossed over is: what is "ownership" when we talk about worker-owners at cooperatives? > The profits generated by each cooperative are put to work for the benefit of the greater whole. Each cooperative gives 14-40% of their gross profits to their division (depending on the division), and another 14% to their parent company. The rest are invested back in the cooperative (60% of net profits), di…

I think that more important than ownership is the purpose of the company. Most companies have the purpose of making money. Few have a purpose which includes contributing to quality of life, unless that’s something which can be sold for a profit.

Not just making money, but making more money than they did last year, forever.

Like a company can't just be cool with the fact that they serve a profitable market niche and gainfully employ people. Investors need capital gains and won't just be satisfied with getting reliable dividends!

Stock buy backs ruined corporate governance...

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#29

Post by m_ke » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 9:11 PM UTC

It's a shame there's not a YC like incubator for tech worker coops, cut out the VCs and have milestone based funding in exchange for a percentage of future profits that would be reinvested in future projects.

Re: Mondragon as the new city-state

#30

Post by prmoustache » Tue, Sep 03, 2024, 9:14 PM UTC

sturmbraut wrote: post #3

I read about Mondragon in Pickety's works. That's why I went to Mondragon. I was deeply disappointed, the city and the surroundings look very sad. It reminded me a lot of the former DDR (german "democratic" republic which was under russian control).

Basque people have a distinct culture. You can often figure out someone comes from there just based on their hairstyle, way of dressing or attitude. They will usually favor practicality and durability over style.

You may think it is sad, they may just think it is the way it should be done and that's it. I don't think you can judge the coop concept based on the impression you got from the city. Its inhabitants may on average feel happier than those where you live.