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Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

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Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#61

Post by juan_juarez »

ebiester wrote: post #9

The unstated counter-argument is that the employer will have to train inexperienced workers who will leave as soos as they become competent and experienced, or pay as much as you would for the experienced person in the first place. Myself, I'd rather train someone up in my process without them learning bad habits, even if that means they're pairing with me for 30 hours out of 40. That said, I'm an exception. Once upo…

Alternately, companies can just have policies in place to actually promote & give raises to people as their skills increase. If your HR procedures don't allow for somebody to get a 25% raise after a year, fire the HR - they're easier to replace than technical employees that understand your produce.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#62

Post by msellout »

kamaal wrote: post #40
hkarthik wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, I neglected to mention the toxic company F which does all of what you're saying. Except after they fire all the programmers, they outsource all of their product development overseas.

Money is not the only motive for outsourcing things. Its one of the many reasons. I am from Bangalore, India. I also worked at a major Indian IT firm for more than 5 years. I can tell you many more parameters apart from money matter regarding outsourcing. I see this with even more clarity as I work for a product company that outsources work. Well executed outsourcing projects make life very easy for clients, that sta…

Perhaps. Or maybe you should come here and see how unwell most of the projects are?

I think it's very easy for the engineers to think they did a good job while the end-users do not. The deals keep flowing because of the middle-men managers and consultants that agree on requirements and success metrics that are not good proxies for end-user productivity.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#63

Post by msellout »

jt2190 wrote: post #37
hkarthik wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The foreignness makes them cheaper in that it makes it easier for companies to justify paying them less and forcing their loyalty through the visa regulations. It has nothing to do with their qualifications which are often excellent.

Maybe it's me, but the suggestion that someone is getting short changed because they're different, and that it's easier to justify short changing someone because they're different, implies that the problem is their difference, not the short-changing.

Are you suggesting we blame the victim?

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#64

Post by mgkimsal »

greyboy wrote: post #39
blindhippo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Soon as I graduated I encountered the experience wall - it was ridiculous. "junior" level positions required 2-3 years experience and paid less then working at Walmart. Now that I have over 5 years experience in my field, I'm rolling in offers and have my pick. I've had managers complain about lack of loyalty in employees. I typically fired back suggesting that if you take new graduates out of school and actually inv…

Agreed. I'm one of the most loyal employees you'll ever find ... as long as I'm treated fairly. In exchange for good work all they need to provide is ample benefits, flexible schedule, satisfactory compensation, work with challenging/motivating problems - or some healthy mix of those. Once the balance shifts to (my personal feeling of) inequality, I have no problem (or choice?) but to move on. Gone are they days of "…

That's not really the definition of 'loyalty' they're looking for though.

"I'm great to work with as long as I get my way".

People who want 'loyalty' are really looking for people who will stick around when things get tough - perhaps pay cuts, wage freezes, benefits reductions, longer work hours - etc. If you stay through those, without complaint, you're "loyal". Being "loyal" as long as "I'm treated fairly" isn't really what they're after.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#65

Post by greyboy »

mgkimsal wrote: post #64
greyboy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm one of the most loyal employees you'll ever find ... as long as I'm treated fairly. In exchange for good work all they need to provide is ample benefits, flexible schedule, satisfactory compensation, work with challenging/motivating problems - or some healthy mix of those. Once the balance shifts to (my personal feeling of) inequality, I have no problem (or choice?) but to move on. Gone are they days of "…

That's not really the definition of 'loyalty' they're looking for though. "I'm great to work with as long as I get my way". People who want 'loyalty' are really looking for people who will stick around when things get tough - perhaps pay cuts, wage freezes, benefits reductions, longer work hours - etc. If you stay through those, without complaint, you're "loyal". Being "loyal" as long as "I'm treated fairly" isn't re…

Of course, I disagree - I call that being taken advantage of. If I could depend on the employers honoring the same thing - employing people "through thick and thin" - I'd believe it, but it's almost unheard of.

Unfortunately, I worked for five years through "when things got tough" - random layoffs, no raises, decreasing benefits. How loyal does one have to be to satisfy your definition?

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#66

Post by mgkimsal »

imgabe wrote: post #19
Retric wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people leave after training then that's a retention problem and has nothing to do with how skilled they where when they started. And yes, giving a 22 year old tech worker a 25+% raise might seem crazy, but if you want to keep up with their increase in value you have to consider such things normal.

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Once you have that 2-3 years of experience, you're suddenly qualified for all of those jobs that want it, that were out of your reach when you just got out of school. Meanwhile, the 3% yearly raises have not kept up with what other employers are offering for someone with a little experience.

What's even stranger is that that same company is probably offering a higher starting salary to someone with 2-4 years experience, but they won't adjust someone to that same salary if they start at 0 and get 2-4 years experience on the job. I've seen this firsthand, and heard similar stories from friends. Not all companies, certainly, but it seems common practice.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#67

Post by JamesLeonis »

mgkimsal wrote: post #64
greyboy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm one of the most loyal employees you'll ever find ... as long as I'm treated fairly. In exchange for good work all they need to provide is ample benefits, flexible schedule, satisfactory compensation, work with challenging/motivating problems - or some healthy mix of those. Once the balance shifts to (my personal feeling of) inequality, I have no problem (or choice?) but to move on. Gone are they days of "…

That's not really the definition of 'loyalty' they're looking for though. "I'm great to work with as long as I get my way". People who want 'loyalty' are really looking for people who will stick around when things get tough - perhaps pay cuts, wage freezes, benefits reductions, longer work hours - etc. If you stay through those, without complaint, you're "loyal". Being "loyal" as long as "I'm treated fairly" isn't re…

I think part of the "Being treated fairly" is transparency from upper management. If the company is in trouble and they are open and honest about it, and they were previously generous to their employees, then those employees will rise to the call. The book Influence [1] calls this concept Reciprocity, and Peopleware likewise talks about this. It's the same concept that good commanders use to inspire loyalty and trust in their troops.

There are also other ways to compensate an employee that does not necessarily involve a cost, such as flexible hours or work from home.

[1]: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/479628.Influence_Rev_

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#68

Post by JamesLeonis »

base698 wrote: post #22

Peter Cappelli: Well, it doesn’t look like that’s true. The business degrees are now, by far, the most popular major, and that’s where people are getting jobs, so that’s pretty common. Seriously? Everyone I knew with just a business degree ended up with a crap retail job. Most of the people in engineering seemed to go into the jobs the business majors wanted.

The raw numbers may say that the numbers of business majors and the number hired is high, but the ratios might be abysmal in comparison to other fields.

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#69

Post by kpennell »

base698 wrote: post #22

Peter Cappelli: Well, it doesn’t look like that’s true. The business degrees are now, by far, the most popular major, and that’s where people are getting jobs, so that’s pretty common. Seriously? Everyone I knew with just a business degree ended up with a crap retail job. Most of the people in engineering seemed to go into the jobs the business majors wanted.

That's me! (the biz major)

Re: Why Bad Jobs-or No Jobs-Happen to Good Workers

#70

Post by sesqu »

berntb wrote: post #53
wccrawford wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. My first company did this for me, and I stayed and was loyal for 2 years beyond when they stopped treating me fairly. I'd still be there, happy and productive, if they had continued paying me what I was worth instead of claiming the economy wouldn't let me. Shortly after I left, they put out a job posting for 7 people, each at more than I would have accepted to stay. The job I left for was paying even more t…

I've seen it argued -- from people that seem to know much more than I do on this -- that HR knows most people will grumble and not leave.

I've heard many an anecdote in support of this, except with the addendum that after a few years of grumbling and increasing in value, they do leave and on bad terms.
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